Harleys, I still don't get it...

[ignisuti]

Okay, I’m fairly new to this whole biker thing. I got my first bike (1983 Honda Nighthawk 650) this last summer, but just now getting some daily use out of it due to numerous mechanical issues.

The more I talk to people, I’m finding that Harley is “the bike to have”. I didn’t get it at first. So I went and test drove one this weekend so I could understand why anyone would pay $5k more for a comparable bike. Well, I still don’t get it…     Not only is the bike more expensive to start with, they appear to require more maintenance. So, the best I can tell is that it’s a fashion thing and everyone wants to be part of the cool-kids-club.

I’m sure I’ll probably get a one-sided opinion here, but if there are any open-minded Nighthawkers out there, please tell me what I’m missing in regards to this topic.

[muttstang]

The thing that HD is really good at is marketing.  HD fans are nothing if they aren't loyal and they have created the general mindset that HD is the bike that people really want and anything else is just a temporary stepping stone to get to that point

[ignisuti]

That's sort of what I was thinking. And here we go...
So, basically anyone that owns a Harley, is someone that fell into the marketing trap and didn't do their homework first.

I've heard the sound is specific to Harleys. Ya, it's a nice rumble, but definitely not a $5k rumble in my book.

[muttstang]

I wouldn't necessarily pre-judge someone who rides a harley.  Many of them just love to ride and they prefer Harleys, they probably were caught up in the marketing and have extra money to spend (or have more credit to use...)

You see all sorts here in Sioux Falls since much of the Sturgis traffic goes through here.

[Bumblebee]

$5K more? Which one did you go look at? The one in the junk yard that's been wrecked then run over by a freight train?

Any harley type will tell you that you MUST have at least $5000 in chrome on the thing. Seriously I use to know someone who has $3500 in chrome coated plastic on one and more was on order. Anything under $25K is a sissy wannabe harley and if you want to be respectable in those circles you better have $40K wrapped up in it plus your designer clothes.

Get a HD or expect to get the middle finger from them on a regular basis.

Yes, there are the occasional hard core riders on HD's however they're few and far between. I've seen exactly two of them in the last 5 years. Those two guys get  from me..and they totally respected my honda and crash gear.

As for a comparable bike, have you ever rode a cruiser on a poorly maintained dirt road? I have. They're not very comparable to a standard feet under your butt honda in those conditions.

<--- has no respect for no skill posers anymore

[ignisuti]

$5K more? Which one did you go look at? The one in the junk yard that's been wrecked then run over by a freight train?

I was just throwing out some numbers and showing my ignorance at the same time. A shiny bike is nice, but at some point I'd start thinking there are better things I could do with my money. To each there own...

<--- has no respect for no skill posers anymore

Not following you here. Are you talking about people that pretend to know how to work on bikes, but don't know what they're doing?

[martian]

He is referring to people who can fill out a credit app for 30k-40k and don't even know what coutersteering is let along how to corner in a tight parking lot without putting their foot down (multiple times).

As for the Harley riders - the stereo type is true for many (dare I say most) but like any stereotype their are many who fall well outside of it.  No matter what your feelings on Harley riders - when is the last time you saw a parade of several dozen sport bikes going down the street raising money for Cancer research or Autism Speaks?

I've met several Harley riders that have well over 100k on the bikes, and ride in every benefit ride, church ride, or just whatever bike gathering in a 100+ mile radius and are friendly to everyone.  I've also met Harley riders who give you the finger just because your ride says Honda on the side of it....

Personally I judge the rider not the mount.

[ignisuti]

He is referring to people who can fill out a credit app for 30k-40k and don't even know what coutersteering is let along how to corner in a tight parking lot without putting their foot down (multiple times).

As for the Harley riders - the stereo type is true for many (dare I say most) but like any stereotype their are many who fall well outside of it.  No matter what your feelings on Harley riders - when is the last time you saw a parade of several dozen sport bikes going down the street raising money for Cancer research or Autism Speaks?

I've met several Harley riders that have well over 100k on the bikes, and ride in every benefit ride, church ride, or just whatever bike gathering in a 100+ mile radius and are friendly to everyone.  I've also met Harley riders who give you the finger just because your ride says Honda on the side of it....

Personally I judge the rider not the mount.

Good points.

[bajakirch]

Try living 1.5 hours from the factory.

By my admittedly non-scientific estimate, roughly 80% of the bikes on the road around here are Harleys.

I do really try to judge the rider as well, but I admit I sometimes fall into 'hater' mode when I see a stereotypical HD rider. What really irks me is when people who know nothing about MCs other than that they have 2 (OK, sometimes 3) wheels asks me when I'm going to get a 'real' bike. 

Here's the contrast I like to describe to people:

With a little help from my friends, the right tools and a decent manual, a mechanical neophyte like me can conceivably tear down something like a NH to its component parts, rebuild it and have it running again.

There's a guy in the next town over that repairs my lawn mowers. Works out of a garage but he's a genius with engines. He has a HD Electra-Super-Sportster-Glide (or whatever). He admitted to me that he refuses to turn a wrench on the thing and takes it to the local Harley shop for all of his maintenance -- including oil changes.

If a guy like that won't work on his bike, why would I ever want one?

[DesignFlaw06]

The thing that HD is really good at is marketing.  HD fans are nothing if they aren't loyal and they have created the general mindset that HD is the bike that people really want and anything else is just a temporary stepping stone to get to that point

When we took our trip to Sturgis a month or so ago (I know, I've falled behind on posting pictures), we went with a couple that was on a HD. Of course we had to stop at the HD shops nearby. What I noticed was that out of the 4 HD shops we went to, there was 1 particular thing you couldn't buy. A frekaing motorcycle! You might have been able to order one, but I didn't care enough to ask. What you could buy and walk out the door with was every type of clothing, trinket, accessory that said HD on it.

[JB1290]

HD has the best marketing on the planet. They have a very loyal customer base. I am a former HD owner. But, I only had a Sportster that I only paid $6995.00 brand new in 2002. The same bike now goes for 10 grand. I don't get how or why people are willing to spend 20 to 30 grand or more for a bike that will likely get less use than the buyers own lawn mower. I also live in "Harley country" and see more than 90% HD compared to other brands on the road. I routinely get crap from my friends who are all HD riders because I traded my Sporty for a Suzuki Bandit. I don't care what other peole think of me and never will. I only know a handfull of people that actually ride their bikes long distances. Most of them are used to go from bar to bar in town.

As far as maintenence on HD's (I am refering to the Evos to todays engines), they are virtually maintenence free. I rode about 18,000 trouble free miles on mine. I did 2 oil changes per year and changed the spark plugs once a year. It was the easiest bike to work on. Anyone that pays a dealership to work on their bikes is a sucker.

It has been mentioned several times here before but, HD has been using the same technology for over a hundred years. They are simple in design and anyone with a manual and some basic tools can work on them. It was a huge wake up call for me to start working on japanese inlie 4's compared to an HD V twin.

If I had the choice on what to work on, I pick the V twin any day. But, I would pick my NH or Bandit to ride over any HD any day of the week. I don't have anything against them because I do think they are nice bikes but, just not worth the money people pay for them. 

[talespin]

I've never understood the HD thing either, but I'm one of those people who is more impressed with the walk than with the talk. HD has definitely got the word-of-mouth thing down.

I don't know about the stereotypical Harley owner hating other makes. I'd classify it more as benign neglect - Harley owners barely lower themselves to acknowledge our existence. I know several Harley riders, and they definitely prefer Harleys over any other bike, but I've never heard them disparage or demean other makes or the people who ride them. One of the HD guys has a Yamaha sport bike for his second bike, but only rides that one when he's riding alone. When all the guys ride out, he's on his Harley.

I was researching Honda police motors a while back, and came across an HD forum thread about some police department that was switching to Honda from HD. I was pleasantly surprised to read a lot of favorable comments about the switch, and a number of positive comments about Hondas - and how they might actually be better for police work than the Harleys they replaced. Of course, there were the "Harley makes the only decent police motors" comments, but the guys who complimented Hondas weren't flamed.

I read a comment on another HD thread where the poster said that he realized that while he was in his driveway, wrenching on his Harley, he'd be watching riders go by on Hondas, Yamahas, and other "Jap bikes," but it was a price he was willing to pay to own a Harley.

I think the Harley thing may be a reflection of a basic human desire to belong to a group or community, as opposed to a rational and reasoned decision to purchase the best piece of machinery out there. I remember those many decades when Corvettes were the biggest pieces of crap you could find, but there were a good many people who wouldn't drive anything else or at least yearned to have one.

[tomsweb1]

I have a little story to tell. Years ago, my wife worked with a guy who loved harleys. She told him that I owned several hondas. He told her that my bikes were not real bikes. When she asked what he rode, his reply was "I don't have a bike, but I have harley boots." I picked my wife up from work that same day, she told me this story. A we rode off, we blew by him on our nighthawk, as he was walking to the bus stop. In his harley boots.

[ignisuti]

I have a little story to tell. Years ago, my wife worked with a guy who loved harleys. She told him that I owned several hondas. He told her that my bikes were not real bikes. When she asked what he rode, his reply was "I don't have a bike, but I have harley boots." I picked my wife up from work that same day, she told me this story. A we rode off, we blew by him on our nighthawk, as he was walking to the bus stop. In his harley boots.

Love it...

[Brittles]

$5K more? Which one did you go look at? The one in the junk yard that's been wrecked then run over by a freight train?

Wow, a lot of misinformation in this thread....

A fairly late model (2004-2006) Sportster in very nice condition can be purchased all day long for $5,000 or less.

Seriously I use to know someone who has $3500 in chrome coated plastic on one and more was on order.

For real? 99.9% of the chrome stuff on any Harley I've ever seen is metal.

I am a former HD owner. But, I only had a Sportster that I only paid $6995.00 brand new in 2002. The same bike now goes for 10 grand.

No disrespect, but there's no way on earth that bike would sell for $10,000, be it an 883 or 1200 (which model did you have?).

From best I can tell my '04 1200 Custom is worth no more than about $5,000

If you were to do a completed listing search on ebay for almost any HD model you'd see that 90% of them don't sell at all due to the overinflated prices........it's not like it used to be. 

[martian]

We also need to remember why many of the Nighthawks here are 700cc's instead of 750cc's.  The reason is because the US Government placed a high tariff on all imported motorcycles with engines larger than 700cc's from about 1984-1987.  This was done to save Harley and make their bikes (which at the time were inferior to most metric bikes) competitive again - basically you could get more Harley for the money than the metric bikes due to the tariff.

While I'm not a big fan of government interference in the private sector (that's a whole other thread that I have no intention of starting...) I will say that the tariff paid off in the long run.  No matter how you feel about Harley, they have probably the best brand recognition and loyalty of any US company and they move a lot of dollars through the US economy.

Just remember - competition is good - it makes everyone better!

[talespin]

I am a former HD owner. But, I only had a Sportster that I only paid $6995.00 brand new in 2002. The same bike now goes for 10 grand.

No disrespect, but there's no way on earth that bike would sell for $10,000, be it an 883 or 1200 (which model did you have?). 

According to the HD website, 2012 883s go for $7,999, and 1200s start around $9,999.

[gammer]

Just remember - competition is good - it makes everyone better!

Economics 101 right there folks 
Its just too bad the US Government didn't follow those rules when they decided to step in and do the tariff thing back then.

Allot of us may not like the Harely image or the attitude of some of the Harely riders. We also might not like Harely for owning the motorcycle market in North America. But what it boils down to is respect...we should judge each rider individually after we've walked a mile in their shoes.

[talespin]

This was done to save Harley and make their bikes (which at the time were inferior to most metric bikes) competitive again - basically you could get more Harley for the money than the metric bikes due to the tariff.

The story of how HD got to its near-bankrupt low point, and how it used the opportunity created by the tariff to remake the company, is really interesting - worth some googling to learn about it.

Japanese bike manufacturers offered to help HD with loans and technological assistance, and HD turned them down.

I think HD was the last major manufacturer to put electric starters on its bikes.

[JB1290]

$5K more? Which one did you go look at? The one in the junk yard that's been wrecked then run over by a freight train?

Wow, a lot of misinformation in this thread....

A fairly late model (2004-2006) Sportster in very nice condition can be purchased all day long for $5,000 or less.

Seriously I use to know someone who has $3500 in chrome coated plastic on one and more was on order.

For real? 99.9% of the chrome stuff on any Harley I've ever seen is metal.

I am a former HD owner. But, I only had a Sportster that I only paid $6995.00 brand new in 2002. The same bike now goes for 10 grand.

No disrespect, but there's no way on earth that bike would sell for $10,000, be it an 883 or 1200 (which model did you have?).

From best I can tell my '04 1200 Custom is worth no more than about $5,000

If you were to do a completed listing search on ebay for almost any HD model you'd see that 90% of them don't sell at all due to the overinflated prices........it's not like it used to be. 

Sorry Brittles, you are right, the Iron 883 is starting at $7999. I was thinking of the 48 which starts at 10 grand. My bad.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/forty-eight.html

 

[gammer]

Japanese bike manufacturers offered to help HD with loans and technological assistance, and HD turned them down.

From what I understand, HD recently (within the last few years) started getting some of their internal parts designed by Porsche. HD certainly held out very long before outsourcing their technology.

[ariwhiteboy]

I've seen Hardly parts boxes with "Product or Japan" on the sticker...I'm sure that just means the box was made in Japan though...

EDIT: Yep, I knew I saw it...

[ignisuti]

Yep, the V-Rod with 1200cc. Was design was assisted by Porsche. According to the sales guy, it's the most highly researched engine design to date. I test drove it and although it was nicer than my current ride (28 year old 650 with 550 engine), I couldn't have justified spending even a couple extra thousand to own it let alone the $15k they wanted. For something designed by Porsche and having more than twice the CCs, I was expecting much more.

The result of that test drive was simply a deeper appreciation for the engineering that went on in my bike.

[ariwhiteboy]

Early V-Rods had a worse than average oil consumption/leaking problem even for a Harley. A cousin of mine ordered, waited for, and picked up a brand new one when they first rolled them out. Sold it for a loss 6 months later...he was taking it back up the dealer almost every other week for one problem on another.  I learned vicariously from that...newest and greatest engine design ain't always that. I will always wait for bugs to be worked out before I purchase something new. 

[talespin]

From what I understand, HD recently (within the last few years) started getting some of their internal parts designed by Porsche. HD certainly held out very long before outsourcing their technology.

In the late 70's or early 80's, Porsche designed a family of water-cooled engines and transmissions for Nova, a high-tech Harley project that never took off. If I remember correctly, HD decided to stick with what they were familiar with.