It's never too late to learn...

[hppants]

Spent Saturday with Loki riding about 400 miles in Louisiana and Mississippi.  That was my first real ride back after my recent off.  I was determined to concentrate on safe riding.  Here's a few things I re-learned that you might relate to:

1.  There's no substitute for time.  Increasing my following distance buys me more time to react to whatever.  MSF preaches 1 second for staggared formation, and 2 seconds everywhere else.  On Saturday, I was following farther than that and it was more comfortable.  I wasn't worried about running up Loki's behind as we go around the corners.  I notice also that Loki was extending the same courtesy for me when he followed.

2.  Hold your line if possible.  Loki and I always ride in staggered formation.  In traffic at one point, while I was leading, the vehicle in front of me slowed unexpectedly.  I in turn braked fairly hard unexpectedly.  By maintaining my line, Loki was able to use the space next to me to allow for some more following distance.

3.  In the curves, slid your butt over on the seat.  Use your entire body to help you lean in the curves.  Jenn's idea of kissing the mirrors is fantastic.  I need to try that more.

More later from me, but in the meantime, what are you learning or re-learning as you ride?

[cmyers]

Pants I may have mentioned this before, but you would really appreciate the DVD by Kieth Code "Tsist of the Wrist 2"

http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-II-Keith-Code/dp/0965045072/ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291179145&sr=1-1-catcorr

great for just riding technique

and the book "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough

http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guide-Riding/dp/1933958359/ref=pd_sim_b_3

[Bumblebee]

Holding your line can be good and bad. Does the rider behind you know you will definitely stay in your half of the lane or not? If not, increase separation.

Kissing the mirror, I haven't heard that before however the concept is good. Lean forward into the direction of the turn and suddenly the corners that scared you are total non events. (I actually look slightly to the right or left of my PF3 windscreen) Maneuvering is improved considerably. It's not so much about sliding your butt over on the seat as it is moving your CG forward and out to the inside of the turn. Pushing that CG forward stabilizes the motorcycle by adding a little more down pressure on the front tire. Once you get that figured out, then start sliding your butt over on the seat.

Addition:
#4. Listen to your mom or aunt. "Sit up straight kid." Posture is everything. Scoot your butt back in the seat with your back arched. (You're not straining your back at all, just arched a lot instead of slumped over like most people sit/ride) Keep your chin up which keeps your head up. Forearms generally level. Elbows slightly out which is a dirt riding technique. Slight down pressure on the pegs. The posture is a little awkward at first however it becomes first nature after a few days of riding. Add in #3 on your list and suddenly you're riding a whole new highly maneuverable motorcycle.

what are you learning or re-learning as you ride?

I've gone through a session of not staying focused thus becoming a bit of a hazard. I'm working on the primary problem and getting there. It's also a long round of parking lot skills and rethinking each one in detail as if I've never done it before. It's really helping.

Everyone here knows I ride dirt roads on a street bike with street tires so here's one I tried that did wonders for my skills:

#5. Parking lot slow school skills. "So what?" you say. Not just the routine stuff in the pristine parking lot. Once your basic skills and proficiency is good, go find a hard packed dirt area and do those same skills on dirt. Some skills like leaning way over to scrape pegs or hard front wheel braking have to be modified or you will be on the ground however the rest of them are good. This will teach you how far you can lean on dirt and that surprisingly the front brake is not always a bad thing on dirt surfaces. (Emergency braking with the front brake on dirt/grass/scrub brush has saved my butt numerous times this year)

[cmyers]

3.  In the curves, slid your butt over on the seat.  Use your entire body to help you lean in the curves.  Jenn's idea of kissing the mirrors is fantastic.  I need to try that more.

More later from me, but in the meantime, what are you learning or re-learning as you ride?

Dont just slide your Butt over, shift your body weight onto the inside foot peg, hold on at the tank by pressing your upper knee into tank while moving your shoulders in toward the inside mirror. Keep your head level leading through the corner with your chin. Getting on the gas as early as possible helps stabilize the suspension, as little as 1-3% of throttle roll-on is often all that is needed. Lastly stay loose on the handlebars, your hands should just be floating on the grips; dont use the handlebars to hang on they are not chin-up bars - doing this can lead to wobbles or increased "pencing" (multiple mid-corner corrections).

I always think "Smoooooth" when cornering; being gentle and putting more effort on a good entry line always leads to a better feel thru and out of the corner.

[drdubb]

Good points.
its easy to get into bad habits.

[luckylindy]

Good info.  No tech talk from me.  I'm learning to slow down and enjoy the ride.  Ripping through a curve is fun, but hitting the belt sander or a cage sucks.

[Bumblebee]

I always think "Smoooooth" when cornering; being gentle and putting more effort on a good entry line always leads to a better feel thru and out of the corner.

I find that one of the main things that makes riding more difficult is letting my stupid brain get involved and mess things up.

Learn the technique and technical aspects then let your instincts do the riding. Let the turns happen as if they were going to anyway. Let it become effortless effort.

Here's something I wrote a while back that explains the philosophy a bit:
http://nighthawk-forums.com/index.php/topic,297.msg3473/

[cmyers]

Well IMO there are a lot of choices and things to consider before entering a corner - entry speed, lane position, path of travel, sight lines, lean angle, visible hazards, and more I'm forgetting ATM - but once in the corner only one thing constant SMOOTH throttle. At first I did have to think about, which meant slowing down enough to allow me time to think about it; now it has become second nature and is part of my muscle memory so much so that if the rear slips or even if the front slides I continue rolling on. This roll on of throttle helps settle the bike and picks it up out of slides.

[Option13]

Late apexing is the key to confidence IMO. I'm in no way afraid to lean off the bike and go past the point of kissing the mirrors to look on the other side, and I know my peg feelers well, but nothing has made me more comfortable going quickly than practicing late apexing.

Obviously it's not the ideal racing line, but most NHF members aren't going for that anyway. Where others I have ridden with panic while they are drifting wide and there's gravel on the edge, I can sail on through with very little fear because I'm much closer to the centerline.

[coffee_brake]

I found recently I wasn't looking through the corner. I was looking up, at where I wanted to go, but I wasn't looking at the vanishing point in the curve, and through it.

Once I was reminded to not only keep my head and eyes up and level to the horizon, but to also look through the corner, the corners got a lot more manageable.

[NHPep]

Late apexing is the key to confidence IMO.

Be careful, especially on the rural roads around Blacksburg.  Right hand twisties can be dangerous.  The "delayed apex" approach from the outside left wheel track might look good on paper but reality is there isn't always enough reaction time if something is coming the other way. Many of these turns should be posted 15 mph but there are too many and VDOT isn't always helpful by letting you know in advance. Many times as I make these right corners at about 20 mph, I will encounter a full tilt biker, car, pickup or farmer with a trailer cutting across more than half my lane. It is human nature to hug to the inside when making left turns. Bikers and cars usually quickly correct to their proper side causing a near miss but the farm truck with a trailer and bailed hay or livestock can't go anywhere quickly. Same situation as a tractor trailer. You will collide with them while in your own lane, or low side and slide into them.  Then for good measure they run over you.

[hppants]

All good comments and I hope the discussion continues so that we can all take from it, especially me.

This last off was a wake up call.  That makes 3 falls in about 2 years - all 3 fully preventable and caused primarily because I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do.  If I'm doing everything right and some knucklehead pulls out in front of me and takes me out, well - that's the risk we all take.  But what is happening is totally different - Pants needed a reality check big time.

1.  I'm not as good a rider as I think I am.  Anyone can twist the wrist.  But a real rider knows how to stop, balance, and slow-speed maneuver.  There's work to be done here - especially on this "new to me" FJR.

2.  I am way too aggressive for my own safety.  It's one thing to ride the bike aggressively, but if I can't quickly bring the bike under control in an emergency situation, than I need to slow way the heck down.  We all know Loki rides agressively, but after spending several thousand miles with him, I can see why.  He's in total control of the bike at all times.  I've seen him react instantaneously to a situation and in 1/10th of a second, it's a non-issue.  I have to admit that I'm not ready for that - adjust accordingly.

So, practice and self-training is the order of the day.  Don't get me wrong - I'm not turning into a Ultra-Glide rider.

I'm going to try to re-learn some good habits and get back to why I do this in the first place.  The good news is the "One the Job Training" is a blast.   

[NHPep]

I'm not as good a rider as I think I am.

Hppants, "Aging is inevitable".  No disrespect to the younger riders, but most ride beyond my comfort zone.  Hence I ride alone.   The good news is there are plenty of rider skill challenges without the wheelie, stoppie or knee puck photo.

My latest interest is a respectable 'U' turn.  The challenge, ride head first into an empty two stall lot with a curb at the end of the parking stalls, make a tight left or right 'U' turn and bring the bike to a complete stop within the second stall facing out ready to head out. Most parking stall lines are between 8 to 10 feet apart.  Two stalls between 16 to 20 feet.  The NH can turn within 12'.  The challenge is mental and physical.  Turning my head full stop reminds me I'm not twenty.

Mind you I don't do this with cars next to my practice area, I pretend they are there. The curb, however, is real.

[LOKi]

1.  There's no substitute for time.  Increasing my following distance buys me more time to react to whatever.  MSF preaches 1 second for staggared formation, and 2 seconds everywhere else.  On Saturday, I was following farther than that and it was more comfortable.  I wasn't worried about running up Loki's behind as we go around the corners.  I notice also that Loki was extending the same courtesy for me when he followed.

Notice I give the FJR a little more room than I gave the NH? I have ridden that bike and know it stops way faster than the NH. If I fallowed at the same distance I give fellow NH's then I would not be able to stop as fast as you in an emergency stop.

what are you learning or re-learning as you ride?

I know better than this:

Don't assume the bike behind you also wants to slow way down to watch a crop duster make a pass over a tiny field (<80 yards long) next to the road. They might be distracted by the small plane skimming the trees and making a dramatic dive into that field and won't notice you have slowed to a crawl.

[gammer]

3.  In the curves, slid your butt over on the seat.  Use your entire body to help you lean in the curves.  Jenn's idea of kissing the mirrors is fantastic.  I need to try that more.

This theory has me intrigued...
So if you were taking a left hand curve, do you kiss the left mirror or the right mirror?

[LOKi]

3.  In the curves, slid your butt over on the seat.  Use your entire body to help you lean in the curves.  Jenn's idea of kissing the mirrors is fantastic.  I need to try that more.

This theory has me intrigued...
So if you were taking a left hand curve, do you kiss the left mirror or the right mirror?

Left



Like pulling your arms in when spinning on a swing or moving towards the middle of a marry-go-round. The more mass you move toward the center of the spin (turn: spin that doesn't keep going round and round) the faster you spin or can turn.

[cmyers]

3.  In the curves, slid your butt over on the seat.  Use your entire body to help you lean in the curves.  Jenn's idea of kissing the mirrors is fantastic.  I need to try that more.

This theory has me intrigued...
So if you were taking a left hand curve, do you kiss the left mirror or the right mirror?

For riding the road - you kiss the LEFT mirror, your body and weight move in the direction you are turning.

Slow speed turning is different in that you counter weight for stability

[muttstang]

3.  In the curves, slid your butt over on the seat.  Use your entire body to help you lean in the curves.  Jenn's idea of kissing the mirrors is fantastic.  I need to try that more.

This theory has me intrigued...
So if you were taking a left hand curve, do you kiss the left mirror or the right mirror?

Left



Like pulling your arms in when spinning on a swing or moving towards the middle of a marry-go-round. The more mass you move toward the center of the spin (turn: spin that doesn't keep going round and round) the faster you spin or can turn.

I don't believe it has much to do with the spinning analogy as much as it allows you to move your center of gravity to the inside of the turn and thus allowing the bike to not have to lean as far to have the correct resultant force.

If you sit in line with your bike's centerline during a turn then your COG is up higher and your bike has to lean over further then if you are to shift your weight to the inside of the turn. 

[Bumblebee]

I don't believe it has much to do with the spinning analogy as much as it allows you to move your center of gravity to the inside of the turn and thus allowing the bike to not have to lean as far to have the correct resultant force.

+1 Angular momentum doesn't apply here.

It's about putting the force vector down the vehicle's vertical axis from the combined motorcycle/rider CG over the wheel contact point. When you lean inside, the motorcycle doesn't lean as far to maintain the combined contact point vector thus the tires have a larger surface touching the ground. Leaning forward toward the mirror balances the suspension better for turning. As a result you're not being tossed sideways off the motorcycle and you can turn much tighter at any given speed because the motorcycle isn't trying to fall over to the outside.

[coffee_brake]

For those of you who have been thoroughly confused by the above discourse, just know that you don't have to understand it for it to work.

Just lean into the curve a bit and try to kiss the mirrors to make cornering better and easier.

Yes, this is different than the other kind of leaning you learn in the parking lot practicing at slow speeds. But it works real good at speed.

[gammer]

Thanks for the responses/explanations. This is very cool.

For riding the road - you kiss the LEFT mirror, your body and weight move in the direction you are turning.

Slow speed turning is different in that you counter weight for stability

This is what I was thinking of precisely. Because I've been practicing the slow speed maneuvers and keeping my body upright or counter weighting it. Its a neat sensation.

[NightHawked]

 

[ariwhiteboy]

This biggest thing that made a difference for me at the rally (the only real curves I get) was some track time before hand. If you can pony up the cash to do a good coached track day I highly recommend it. In addition to breaking bad habits the coaches have a way of phrasing things that make them easy to conceptualize and apply. One thing I took with me from one of those days and shared was the "High, Low, High"* concept of cornering. Take the corner "high", let the decel take you "low", then accelerate out and back to the "high". Takes practice to get right, especially on unfamiliar curves, but will greatly increase your "speed" without increasing your speed.


*Watch this on the street, the low can take you close to the centerline (oncoming traffic).

[Option13]

An explanation of leaning off the bike/kissing the mirrors, in layman's terms:

When you take a turn, you have to lean the bike over to the inside in order to keep the bike balanced in the turn and prevent the bike from flipping over to the outside. We all know this, correct? The center of gravity is now closer towards the inside of the turn compared to the contact patch, and the bike is balanced. The force of gravity pulling the bike down is equal to the centripetal force.

When you lean to the inside, whether you're simply kissing the mirrors, or moving your entire body over, you're moving the center of gravity towards the inside of the curve without moving the bike. As a result, the bike itself doesn't have to lean as far over to be balanced going through the turn, because you are leaning in it's place. This will let you, at a given lean angle, go faster through a turn, or lean the bike less while going the same speed.

The inverse also true at speed - lean to the outside and you will have to lean the bike farther to the inside to compensate. At a given lean angle through the same turn you will be slower, and at a given speed the bike will be leaning over farther (have less clearance).




The height of the center of gravity vs. lean angle is more complicated to explain, but what you need to know is - keep your weight forward, low, and inside.

[LOKi]

I don't believe it has much to do with the spinning analogy as much as it allows you to move your center of gravity to the inside of the turn and thus allowing the bike to not have to lean as far to have the correct resultant force.

Well maybe not directly. But the forces at work are easy to under stand with the analogy. How pulling in an arm while spinning on a swing will increase your spin. It's something we have all done. It might not feel like moving your body to the inside of the bike makes that big of a difference but it does.

Now that I'm thinking about it I don't get why this analogy doesn't work. Weren't there some laws written about this?

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Newton

So this is what I'm thinking. Lets take that turn and keep going. In an open parking lot we take a turn at 20mph as tight as we can with body straight up. At this point the bikes mass and you are on the very outer edge of the rotating mass. The center of rotation being the point you are circling. Now when you move your body to the inside 100+ lbs are now a few inches closer to the center. The bike can turn faster now. Not only because it can now lean more but because you have moved mass to the center of the motion. Here is the part you can't actually do. Now step off the bike and walk to the center. Now that 100+ lbs is rotating, instead of traveling around the center point. The bike in turn should rotate even faster around the center. It doesn't matter how big or far away from the center an object is to be effected by this. Our moon started off really close to the earth and the earth was spinning crazy fast. Something like a rotation every two hours or something. As the moon moved farther and farther away the spin of the earth was slowed from this same force.

There are a lot of factors that come into play with a motorcycle but this must have some effect on the turn.