Downshifting vs braking

[qcompgreg]

General motorcycle question.  On my 2000 nh, when I come to a stop, how much should I be slowing down by down shifting?  Sometimes I feel like I am hardly using my brakes.  Does it put some wear and tear on the engine that I should be putting into my brakes, which I can easily change?

[ariwhiteboy]

Don't overthink it...it's not one or the other, it's both. I use engine braking to bleed off most of my speed, but that's me.

[happycommuter]

If you have the time and space to just roll off the throttle, go ahead.

Severely chopping the throttle at higher engine speeds will lead to that cool popping sound of fuel burning outside the cylinder.  I'm pretty sure that's a habit to avoid.

Actually clunking down through gears and re-engaging the clutch would be ridiculous IMHO.

[Option13]

I love the burble it makes slowing down from 7-5K RPM's

I used to use a lot of engine braking, but I found myself to be relying on it so much I was severely out of practice when it came to sudden stops, so I started using the brakes more.

[Bumblebee]

Brake pads are cheap and easy to replace. Engines are expensive and a hassle to replace.

Realistically, don't overthink it. Throttle back and slow with some engine braking if desired then pull the clutch and use the brakes to stop. Just remember that engine braking does not engage the brake light for the blind cager behind you to notice you're decelerating.

[coffee_brake]

Every model is different. Some bikes just have tons of engine braking.

The later model NH is somewhere in the middle. I would engine brake to third, shifting down to it gear by gear. When third wound down I would pull the clutch and finish with the hand/foot brakes.

But as long as is doesn't sound like you're throwing the revs WAY high doing it, it is not hurting anything in the motor, it is helping you slow down, and it is a very good thing to proficient with it. Ever find yourself having to slow down in a sudden spot of oil, or ever have a brake line/pedal/lever fail en route? Engine braking is good to know....

On some bikes, it is very smooth to bump the throttle as you release the clutch to the next lower gear, the engine "catches" the revs on the way down in a most smooth and effective way. This only works on the NH to a limited degree, but on really torquey engines it's a good practice to prevent rear wheel skip, and smooth out the ride.

[hppants]

Every model is different. Some bikes just have tons of engine braking.

Agreed, but I wonder why? 

The FJR can almost stop itself.  If you are not ready for it, a strong downshift in the 4-6K range might put you over the bars.  Not really, but it's impressive.

[Poligrafovich]

Another thing to remember is that engine braking is 100% rear. If you wouldn't do it with the pedal, why do it with the engine?

[Davy888]

The reason you down shift is more so your bike is in the correct gear for the speed you are traveling. You don't want to get caught in a higher gear moving at a slower speed. If you had to speed up in an emergency you wouldn't have the power to do so. Rely on your brakes for stopping (front and rear)  but always downshift through the gears as you slow down.  Good question. Hope that helped.

[coffee_brake]

I do not believe that relying only on your brakes for stopping is a good idea.

For instance, since it was on my mind, I was paying attention to how I was riding my big Concours just now in a very heavy, steady rain. It was a bad day to be riding. The rotors (front and rear) were wet, and it was taking more time to slow the bike because of the wet rotors.
Add to this the situation: old, bumpy city streets, many many many painted lines and arrows, oil spots and spills throughout the industrial and commercial districts on my route, and heavy traffic driving poorly in the rain. And I'm on a great big touring bike, the better for traffic to see me.

If I ONLY used the brakes to slow the bike today, I would have been relying solely on binders slowing the wheels. At this time traction was poor due to the above mentioned road conditions. Loading the tires by hitting the brakes hard enough to slow the bike considerably, with wet rotors too, would have been unwise.

It was far better to let off the throttle at stops and let the engine help slow the bike, downshifting as necessary, so that I could use the brakes a little less and keep more traction in reserve.

In the heavy rain, BTW, it's a good idea to brake very gently, very early, to "squeegee" off the rain water from the rotors and dry them. IF you can, IF you have time. If you don't, you better be engine braking because your rotors are wet and your stopping distance is increased.

[Burgi]

I always use downshifting/engine braking in manual shift cars so I guess it just naturally carried over to the motorcycle. Is there some reason the bike is different?

[NHPep]

Another thing to remember is that engine braking is 100% rear. If you wouldn't do it with the pedal, why do it with the engine?

If the downshifting is causing or almost causing a rear wheel slide, in my opinion, you have your rpms, speed and gear selection wrong.   A downshift followed by a gentle clutch release while also braking should work hand in hand.  By slowly reengaging the clutch, you should never be thrown forward.  The sound of the engine winding up too high should immediately tell you you are off, in which case you pull in the clutch. If I let out the clutch and it throws me forward, in my book this means I've screwed up. 

[coffee_brake]

  A downshift followed by a gentle clutch release while also braking should work hand in hand.   

Precisely.

[muttstang]

slowly releasing or applying the clutch increases clutch wear though.  I'd much rather change brake pads then clutch pads. 

[coffee_brake]

Got 66k miles on that Concours using engine braking. Ain't never had a clutch problem yet.
I have, however, put at least $200 worth of brake pads on the thing though, my rotors are nearly worn out, and a new set of rotors is over $300. This is WITH engine braking since the day it was new....

[rebel715]

For me, it would depend on the road conditions, straight road or curves, and if I were riding in "sport" mode or not.  If you're riding aggressively, it is best to brake before cornering and to be ON the gas while going through the corner.  This will UN-Load the suspension and give you more ground clearance so you can take the corners faster. 

[muttstang]

Also to consider:

Pure engine braking - no brake lights
Pure brake pad braking - yes brake lights.....

[ariwhiteboy]

If you're riding aggressively, it is best to brake before cornering and to be ON the gas while going through the corner.  This will UN-Load the suspension and give you more ground clearance so you can take the corners faster. 

Come to the Deal's Gap rally and you'll see people riding very aggressiveness without touching the brakes. (Other than the courtesy flash when corners are approaching.) 

[bajakirch]

It's interesting that this topic has been resurrected, as I've been thinking about it a lot lately.

First off, when riding the bike I use a combination of engine braking and regular brakes. I too learned this driving cars with manual transmissions and it just naturally transferred over to the bike. My justification repeats much of what's been mentioned already:
- Using the engine to help slow down extends brake life.
- Using regular brakes help prevent wear and tear on the clutch.
- Using regular brakes activates the brake light for those coming up behind me.
- I down shift while engine braking so that I can better match the gear with my decreasing speed in the event I have to suddenly accelerate.
- It does sound kinda cool 

The reason this has come up lately is that we bought a new car back in December so serve as SOQS's main ride. We bought new from the dealer, something we've never done before, and got a decent deal on a vehicle with a manual transmission. Both SOQS and I can drive a stick, so it's no big deal.

The issue that's come up is that it drives her crazy when I'm driving her car and I engine brake. She thinks I'm ruining the engine. I tell her that -- based on my years of experience and the fact that I'm a little more knowledgeable on things mechanical -- it's doing no harm and is actually a good thing.

Yeah, you can imagine how that goes over.

The debate continues...

[hppants]

Like Ari, I do much more engine braking when I'm riding the twisties.  I tend to run in a lower gear than I would if I was riding flat straight ground at the same speed.  It offers a little more braking overall IMO.  But more importantly, as rebel715 notes, engine braking allows the suspension to stay more neutral as I approach the apex of the curve.  I don't care much for my forks bouncing around when I'm negociating a cuve if I can help it.  Also, one has to consider reaction time when applying the brakes.

As a side note, when I had my 700s, with the Mac 4-1, keeping the bike up in the 6-8K range with that pipe singing against the hill/mountain sides is pretty neat.  Not "I want to hear that all day" neat, but for a while, it was fun.

To the thread's question though, I doubt seriously that anyone is going to break a tranny by pulling on the coast side of the gear or the shift fork.  Wear the clutch out a tad prematurely?  Maybe.  But not the transmission.

[pkmitton]

slowly releasing or applying the clutch increases clutch wear though.  I'd much rather change brake pads then clutch pads. 

I will be the first to admit I am not very knowledgeable on the subject of mechanics, but I thought motorcycles used a type of clutch that does not suffer from the slow release of the clutch lever (like a car's clutch would).

Can someone clarify for me?

[muttstang]

I'll engine brake slightly more so that I'm still in a decent gear to accelerate if I need to.  I usually skip gears going down, I'll go from OD to 4th, then to 2nd

[bajakirch]

RE: The clutch issue -- I recall a previous discussion where I learned that MC's do not need the clutch engaged to downshift. Not quite as smooth, but it does work. IIRC, no harm done to the tranny.

[Option13]

Usually most people do the clutchless upshift. All you have to do is let off the throttle and at the same time shift up, no clutch involved.

[ariwhiteboy]

But more importantly, as rebel715 notes, engine braking allows the suspension to stay more neutral as I approach the apex of the curve.  I don't care much for my forks bouncing around when I'm negociating a cuve if I can help it. 

Rebel has a point about unloading the suspension, but if you become proficient at matching your revs on a downshift then the effect is minimal. If you think getting on the brakes pre-curve/mid-curve doesn't unload the suspension, you better think again.

When riding the twisties, I find that, for me, engine braking feels much more natural. Sometimes I let the clutch out slowly, sometimes I have to drop the bike down a gear and slow quickly. In my view the clutch is a wear item...my last one went 40K w/ no problems and it only takes about 30 minutes to rebuild one.

Usually most people do the clutchless upshift. All you have to do is let off the throttle and at the same time shift up, no clutch involved.

I've got to meet the riders you hang out with. Yes, I've heard of clutchless upshifts, but I've never seen them endorsed so readily outside of the race world. Seems like this might be a classic case of "it works for the racing world so it must be great for the street". AFAIK, using the clutch is intended to take the stress of the tranny during critical moments (shifts). Shift forks/gears are too precious for me to risk them because I don't want to pull the clutch.