New Camping Gear for Pants

[hppants]

I'm ready to pull the trigger on my motorcycling camping gear.  I'm committed on my tent choice, sleeping pad, pillow, and waterproof sack.  The sleeping bag has got me stumped.  I don't want to spend $200.00 plus on a down, TRUE ZERO degree bag.  However, I know the synthetic bags tend to cheat the temp rating.  Clearly, I'm going to be a 3 (more likely 2) season camper.  I can see an unusual front in the Smokies dropping May temps down into the 30's overnight.  Of course, those of you that know me know that I want everything for nothing.  

Here are a couple of choices I'm looking at:

1.  http://www.rei.com/product/812679/alps-mountaineering-clearwater-20-sleeping-bag-long-special-buy
This one is currently my first choice, but the reviews are not all that favorable (some are, some arn't).  The biggest complaint is that if the temp falls below 40, you will be cold.

2.  http://www.rei.com/product/835847/the-north-face-elkhorn-0-sleeping-bag-2011-closeout
This one comes with better reviews, but experienced campers still say that when it gets closer to freezing, they get cold.  Also, this one doesn't stuff very well (it's 4 lbs and more bulky).  Also, this one tends to condensate.

So, if you are a camper, what do you think?  Any and all comments are welcome, please.  I'm prolly over thinking this.

[ExTex]

You may find the adventure forum a better place to ask about camping gear.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/index.php

Ride safely,
 

[bajakirch]

Having advised Boy Scouts on camping gear for the last 6 years, and being a pretty avid tent camper myself, I'll chime in.

Regarding the choices you listed above, I'd go with the North Face. Their gear is typically pretty well-made; I've never had any complaints with anything I've purchased from them.

Now for my input on the general topic of sleeping bags for camping:

Don't get caught up in all the whiz-bang gewgaws that seem to be available out there. Sure, if you're planning to conquer the Seven Peaks or trade in your 3-BR split-level for a dome tent, you might want to invest in an uber-quality bag. Anything less than that, you don't have to spend a lot of money on a bag.

Here's my sleeping bag set-up:

For hot weather (overnight temps expected to be over 80 degrees), I use a thin flannel sleeping bag liner I picked up at a camping discount store for around $12. Cheap, packs small and light, and I can unzip it and use it as a blanket too.

For warmer weather (overnight temps expected to be 50-80 degrees), I use an inexpensive nylon bag with synthetic fill. It's a little bulkier but is still backpack (and MC) friendly.

For cool weather (overnight temps 25-50 degrees), I combine the two aforementioned items. Key point -- if you have a flannel bag liner, your life will be a lot easier if your bag has a nylon interior. Flannel on flannel (or any kind ofscloth) is a pain to get into, wraps uncomfortably around the legs during the night, and -- in really cold weather -- can generate some nasty static electricity.

For cold weather (overnight temps 15-25 degrees), I have a thick, flannel-lined sleeping bag I picked up on closeout for around $45. Rolled up as tightly as I can get it, it's still too big for a backpack or MC.

And for the really cold stuff (anything below 15 degres, I combine all 3. The liner goes into the nylon bag which goes into the flannel-lined bag. I've slept in this in temps down to the single digits.

I could go on an on about staying warm while sleeping outdoors (and maybe I'll start another topic on that at some point), but this is my final point for this discussion. If you're expecting cool weather -- and I understand that we all have different definitions of what that is -- what you wear to bed can be a big help in keeping you warm at night. When I'm sleeping in sub-freezing temps, I am usually wearing some combination of the following: thick long underwear, thin long underwear, flannel shirt, flannel-lined or quilted jeans, 2 pairs of wool socks, down booties, gloves, mittens, stocking cap, balaklava.

And just remember -- you have options. If you buy a bag that won't handle the weather you run into, most of us have the means to slide over to a motel for the night.

Good luck.

[Bumblebee]

Of the two you listed, I would go with the 0F bag. +20F is a warm weather summer only bag once the insulation gets smushed for a year or two. Just be aware that those tapered bags can be annoying and colder if there's not enough room to move your feet around at night.


Bajakirch has it right about putting things together as layers and materials. (flannel or cloth lined bags, he's so right, forget that nonsense - nylon and slide in liners is the way to go)

The worst thing you can do is to be out in conditions that the bag and liners can't handle. Being cold at 10pm is going to be bad by 3am. The bag rating number is just a moderate reference point under ideal conditions in a polite refrigerator. For reality, add 15 to 20 degrees to that number.
Whatever temperature you're going to be in, get a bag that's rated lower than that. It's about heat retention. 30F with a 20F bag is out of limits. You want a 10F or 0F bag for that or at least additional liners to bring the 20F rating down to something realistic. Remember that you can always dump heat however you can't necessarily keep it. You can always unzip the bag or just toss it over you if it's too warm (I use my 0F down bag in 80F weather just by tossing it partially over me as needed at night)


Here's the bit that everyone misses about sleeping bags or cold weather sleeping in general: A sleeping bag or blanket or a jacket is just thermal retention. It does this by stopping airflow thus retaining heated air that's in the bag/blanket/jacket's insulating layer. It is not really the insulation that's important. It's the heated air that is important..which is related to the insulation's retention capability and material thickness and density. A dense solid block of insulation material with no air will not retain heat nearly as well as the same exact insulation fluffed up with air in it. Different insulation types work better or worse because of it's ability to stabilize the air and reduce air flow. The smaller the individual air pockets are, the better the insulation is at retaining heat. Look at a piece of down sometime. It is nothing more than a bunch of tiny little raggedy fluffy bits that create bazillions of little air pockets and cut air movement to near zero. The best synthetic stuff available just isn't up to the same raggedy consistency thus there are larger blocks of air and more air movement. The bigger the air blocks, the higher the heat loss. That is why down is so good at heat retention. After that, any heat that escapes the outer layer is heat that has to be replaced by your body. When you replace heat, you are staying colder. If you want real fun, cut the heat loss to almost nothing then throw a wool blanket over the top. Wool works best on the outside of everything else because it works like an airtight cap on a bottle. It doesn't let much heat past it which effectively bounces that heat right back in to your insulation and back to you. However if wool is used as a first or middle layer, it won't do nearly as well since it doesn't let the heat through to the additional insulation layers above it which goes right back to no heated air mass to stay warm.
The air in the insulating layer starts out cold. Your body heat that escapes from you goes into that insulation and heats the air up. The insulation properties retain that heat and keep it from escaping through the outer layer into free air. Once that insulated air mass is warmed to your body temperature, you stay warm because instead of your body having to heat the air around you, you are no longer losing heat. IOW, you have to heat the air in the insulating layer up to stay warm inside the bag. This is why overdressing in a sleeping bag will keep you cold for a long long time..because you never heated the insulation air up to start with and if you don't heat that air mass......

My setup:
Sorry, I use the spendy stuff because functional capability is far more important than a one time expense 20 years ago that I long forgot about anyway. (money in the bank means nothing when your tent blows down and you're freezing 100 miles from civilization)
$200 down 0F nylon bag for year round camping. A -40F down bag for serious stuff. Fleece liner. Flannel liner though I don't use it much. Wool blanket for over the top though mostly I use that in the winter in the motorhome which is kept in the 40's at night. I'm toasty warm whether it's in the motorhome in sub zero temperatures or at 12,000 feet in a snow cave in a blizzard. Actually I'm probably more comfortable than you are in your modern climate controlled heated house...then again I have a lot of experience doing this stuff.

P.S. Go pee before going to bed. It sounds silly however you will stay warmer at night if you don't have to go potty whether you get up or not.

[hppants]

Baja - make no doubt, I'm not giving up my home.  But there are no split levels on the Gulf Coast.  The water table is 5 feet below the ground.   

Somehow Mr. Bee, I had a feeling you were going to tell me to get the Eskimo Suit.   

Seriously, both of you have given me great advice and I guess I'm going to go with the 0 def f bag (recognizing that it's prolly more like a 30 degree bag - which is definitely the lower limit of my camping), and pick up a liner.

Thanks for the help.

[bajakirch]

P.S. Go pee before going to bed. It sounds silly however you will stay warmer at night if you don't have to go potty whether you get up or not.

Well, since you brought up the topic...

I attended a winter camping seminar through the Scouts. An old-timer shared his tips on cold-weather camping. This was one of his Top 10 rules.

First, all the heat retention in the world does you no good if you have to open everything up in the coldest part of the night to dash to the nearest tree.

Second, once your body starts getting cold, one of the first stages of its autonomic survival mode is to jettison unecessary waste -- like urine. So the colder you get, the more you need to go.

Third, have you ever awakened, realized you had to go to the bathroom, then tried to get back to sleep? Sure, it's possible, but then you end up waking every 20 minutes. Not a recipe for a good night's sleep.

Finally, there's the 'Thunder Jug'. [Look away now if you're squeamish about bodily functions] This was his term for a largish detergent bottle he brought in the tent with him. He had cut out the bottle's pour spout and filed down the pointy plastic edges, leaving him with a plastic jug with a nice wide mouth and a twist-on cap. I think you can put the rest of the mechanics together.

If you were flexible enough, he claimed you could use the system without losing much heat from the bag. And, if you really trust the twist-on cap, you get yourself a hot-water bottle full of 98-degree fluid to help keep you warm.

I'm taking his word for it.

[Bumblebee]

Well, since you brought up the topic...

This is as much a technical procedure as it is an art. It could fill an entire subforum up with this stuff trying to explain all the details. A week in the woods, and sometimes in one's own backyard, with escape options is the best learning environment.

Somehow Mr. Bee, I had a feeling you were going to tell me to get the Eskimo Suit.  

 
You live on the Sun. You don't need anything serious to stay warm there.

BTW, an eskimo suit has nothing on an Antarctic ECW gear. And, um, yes, I know where to get that stuff. Spendy spendy though. It'll run you about $1500 but you'll be able to work outside at -100F all day long without getting cold. You can't wear it in above zero temperatures though - heatstroke city.


Picture:
It was -10F one night so instead of staying in the motorhome that I had the temperature set really low all day I decided to go camping. I made a big pile of snow, dug a hole into it and moved in for the night. It was toasty warm to the point I was getting hot and punched a few extra ventilation holes through the dome. You can't go wrong with a snow cave in serious cold weather.

[tbante]

Pants, which pad/mattress did you get?

[hppants]

Tent - this tent was a great price.  Taped seams and very well reviewed
http://www.rei.com/product/833073/marmot-traillight-2p-tent-2011-closeout

Sleeping Bag - went with the zereo deg. bag per Baja's rec.
http://www.rei.com/product/835847/the-north-face-elkhorn-0-sleeping-bag-2011-closeout

Pad - this insulated pad was highly suggested.
http://www.rei.com/product/834379/big-agnes-sand-mountain-sleeping-pad-long-special-buy

Pillow:
http://www.rei.com/product/816776/grand-trunk-adjustable-travel-pillow-special-buy

Next is looking at waterproof duffel bags.  I friend gave me a waterproof (rubber) compression sack large enough for everything.  I just need to get the gear, pack it, and look at how it works on the bike.

Having fun.

[Bumblebee]

Waterproof bags: Don't fool around with wallyworld junk or 10th world knockoffs. Get real dry bags. They're not overly expensive and come in multiple sizes. I put my $1000 in camera gear in one and carry it in the open kayak cockpit with me. I'm completely willing to take that bag and throw it overboard and tow it behind me in rough water as long as there are not rocks and stuff to break/poke holes in things.

I have a yellow 30 liter XPS dry bag that fit's across the seat and is as long as my tent bag. It has a carry handle and tiedown loops on it. It's the perfect size and I could stay on the road indefinitely using it as my clothes and little assorted stuff closet.

For trinkets, the little pelican and otter cases are everything proof.


Heavy stuff low and forward, light stuff high and aft. Use caution on the side stand since you can overload enough to topple over easily if you carry an unreasonable amount of junk. If you drop the motorcycle, unload then lift - it's much easier that way especially when you're frustrated and likely to hurt yourself.

[tbante]

If you havent already bought the pad do yourself a great big favor and get the 25 inch wide version. It looks like maybe $30 more but the difference in the width is a world of difference in comfort. I kept rolling off my 20" wide one but the 25 is sweet. I wish I had bought it first.

[bajakirch]

Good choice on the tent. REI was selling those last fall for around the same price and our scout troop picked up 2 of them. Very packable, and they have a real rain fly that will keep out the elements.

[fortyhourdays]

No kidding about the cheap Wally World knockoff waterproof bags.  I went on a 50 mile, 3 day, white water canoeing trip a while back.  My dad and I packed all our stuff in double layered 3 mil garbage bags.  My friend packed his in a cheap "waterproof" bag from Walmart.  He was all proud of his very cool looking dry bag compared to our garbage bags.  Guess who's stuff stayed dry?  We all had to loan extra blankets and clothes to him for the next few days since his "dry" bag seemed to be only good at keeping water in as opposed to out.

[Floridamtbiker99]

Sears is having big online sell on camping stuff. Sleeping Bags for $7 good for 30 degrees.  My wife bought some at the store.

[hppants]

The waterproof compression sack I was given is "dunk proof" - it's made of that 420 Denier material.  No doubt it will keep the water out.  It will also hold all of the camping gear, I believe.  I'm just concerned how it's gonna ride on the bike.  I still want to use my soft tail bag for my "I need to get to stuff on the road" - jacket liner, extra pair of gloves, tools, tire repair, clear helmet shield, rain riding gear, etc.  So, I need to be able to pack both bags, along with my hard saddle bags for my clothes.  A hard top case is just not in the budget right now.  We'll see.

[ariwhiteboy]

HP- I had that big ol' WP bag laid across the back of my bike and it rode fine on top of the soft tail bag I put on the passenger seat. IIRC I had my sleeping bag and clothes in there. I looked like a Beverly hillbilly going down the road, but I made it. That's all that counts right? 

[hppants]

No doubt - function over form will work for me.  Especially for the D/G rally, where 95% of the ride there will be slab.  Once I get there, I can unload and have some fun.  On other trips, where I'm hoping to take the camp with me, maybe different story.  I started a thread on the FJR forum and asked the campers to post bike loaded pictures.  Some of those guys are incredible - I mean packed for 30 plus days in the Yukon - my heros.

However, one concern I have is being able to see with my mirrors and the load stacked high.  We'll just have to see.

[Bumblebee]

However, one concern I have is being able to see with my mirrors and the load stacked high.

Take less junk. If you're riding into nowhere and carrying long range supplies you just have to deal with the extra tires back there.

The picture of mine, and I've carried more than that before, was near totally invisible in the mirrors. I had to turn around and look over my shoulder to see if it was still there. There was no real world visibility restrictions in the mirrors.

[thetraveler59]

OK,
Glad I can finally contribute vs just asking questions all the time.
I am a camper and I usually hangout in the Sierra Nevada Mountains.

First off buying from Rei is smart because their return policy protects you
for as long as you own the equipment.  You do pay a little more but that's OK.

I use a Marmot Pinnacle sleeping bag and Re's sleeping pad (it's a knock off from Thermarest).
DO NOT BUY THE BIG AGNESS BLOW UP PAD EVEN THOU IT IS SO COMPACT........I HAD IT ONE
SUMMER AND I KEPT SLIDING OFF IT NO MATTER HOW I LAID ON IT.  The small size is very attractive
for a backpacker and motorcycle backpacker!

What kind of tent do you have or thinking about buying?  another important factor in staying warm and dry.
How many days are you going to be camping at one time?
Thin silk long johns and shirt works wonders.  Don't forget to wear a wool hat so you don't loose body heat thru your head.

Have you found http://www.backcountry.com?  There prices are better than REI and their return policy is the best.  they have free shipping on orders over $50 and you pay no tax!  They are just a wonder experienced group of backpacks. Big sale right now!

Lastly, don't forget to buy a whistle just in case you encounter a bear.............LOL

[hppants]

traveler59 - thanks for your thoughts.  I wish I would have known about them earlier in the week.  Up at "reply #8", you can see that I've made my choices, which are due for delivery Thursday of this week.  I bought the Big Agnes pag    I made my choices from advice I got from friends, and from a LOT of reviews (both 3rd party independent reviews, and customer reviews on REI's website) I read.

I did research Backcountry.com, but all of the choices I made at REI were closeouts from the 2011 season, and Backcountry didn't have similar values.  I got free shipping and no tax at REI.

I was sold on REI's return policy, as you pointed out.  One of my personal friends attested that REI will make it good.  So, if I slip off that B/A pad, during my "at home" setup, then back it goes.

I'll prolly be camping 2-3 nights tops at a time.  Way down the road, I envision going for weeks at a time, but that will be with new equipment by then, and even so, I'll prolly camp 2-3 nights, then stay at a hotel for a night, then back to camping.  Got to keep dreaming. 

Again, many thanks and I'll keep updating this thread with news - good, bad, or othewise.

[green427]

re: bajakirch's suggestion:

We have some Coleman poly-fill sleeping bags with flannel liners. You are right, these liners are very warm. Bags are low-budget, but perform as expected.

I bought some fleece sleeping bags at Wally World last year with the intention of using them on my motorcycle camping trip....the trip never happened, so I can't comment on them yet.

Really, like everyone said, the biggest headache about tent camping is emptying your bladder during the night. I know of people that use hospital-grade bottles, Snapple tea bottles, and my favorite...Powerade Zero bottles.

[Soupskin]

Just remember, 12 oz goes in but 14 always comes out.

[bajakirch]

Really, like everyone said, the biggest headache about tent camping is emptying your bladder during the night. I know of people that use hospital-grade bottles, Snapple tea bottles, and my favorite...Powerade Zero bottles.

Never, ever use a Mountain Dew bottle.

Just sayin'.

[thetraveler59]

Pants,
Don't even unpack the Big Agnes pad!
It might work good with their sleeping bag where you can slip it in!
But you'll find that it will lose air in the middle of the night and you won't be able to stay on it because of the width unless you are a midget!  I assume you are not since you ride a NH,

[hppants]

Well, my camping gear arrived yesterday ahead of schedule.  I'm pleased to report that all of it packs very nicely into the waterproof compression sack I have. The overall size of the sack when packed is much smaller than I expected.  Today after work, we'll see what it looks like on the bike.  Then the next challenge is to take everything out of its stuff sacks (packed from the manufacturer) and see if I can get it to pack back properly.

I was hoping to do a shake down camping ride this weekend, but Mother Nature has other thoughts.     Fingers crossed...