braking

[detdrbuzzard]

when you ues your brakes do you use front then rear rear then front or both? i usually go for my front brake first and then the rear. what about you??

[happycommuter]

For those with shaky physics backgrounds, remember when you push a toy car around: the less you push down, the more freely the wheels rotate, push hard (more weight) and it drags more.

The proper way is to hit the rear brake a bit earlier than the front, as the center of gravity is rearward until deceleration starts.  Gradually ease up on the rear while squeezing more front, as the CG moves forward.

When you brake hard, the rear wheel will become nearly (or entirely if you endo) unloaded, making it very easy to lock up.

I try to do this, but also use only rear at very low speeds, and lazily use just front for planned stops.  Poor faith in my bike's stopping distance has led to longer following distances that generally avoid panic stops.

[Racinjasan]

Depends on the situation.

[DesignFlaw06]

Rear then front generally.

[Bumblebee]

It depends on the situation.

Slow parking lot skills, rear brake almost exclusively.
Normal stopping on pavement, both at once though the rear comes with the front however the front leads the stopping power.
Emergency stop from higher speeds, the front gets loaded really quick with the rear following. Once the front is held as close as possible to the top of the friction curve then I bring in the rear brake to reduce the stopping distance substantially. That rear tire unloads significantly so I tend to be really careful with it especially once the front is loaded up. This keeps my rear tire rotating thus reducing the chances of a self induced high/low side crash if I let the rear brake go or keep it locked down.

Time permitting I try to get the bike to squat a bit by using the rear brake. I'm always as careful as possible to keep the rear tire rolling lest I end up in a low or high side dynamic.

I have very little true dirt skills so there's no way I'm grabbing a handful of front brake especially during a turn. Rear brake first and very careful with the front.

Humans are not very good ABS emulators. I balance my inability to reach maximum coefficient of drag on both wheels with paranoid following distances and reduced speeds as appropriate.


The 1200GS I'm going to get will certainly have ABS so I can let the braking system handle control of the wheels rotation during emergency stops.

[beardking]

I just hammer them both as hard as possible and hope for the best.   

[xxxbotchlaxxx]

i just try to do my MSF thing, squeeze both brakes, at the same time, every time, with slow even pressure.  in all honesty, I engine brake a lot, rarely am I loading up those brakes very much, and when I am, it is because something stupid just happened on the road ahead, or more frequently, my stupid arse forgot to slow down sooner lol

[MrF]

Regular maintenance can help keep your bike from braking. 

(Sorry. . .couldn't resist.)

I'd always applied both at the same time, with more pressure on the front and less on the back as the CG shifted forward.  Now I try to use the same technique that happycommuter described (after reading about it on the old Nighthawk forums no less, possibly from HC there too), but old habits are hard to brake.

(Wow, two in one post. . .I'm on a roll.)

[coffee_brake]

(Wow, two in one post. . .I'm on a roll.)

You're cut off. Please sir, step away from the keyboard.








 

[Lethal_Threat]

I use the rear brake until I am almost stopped, then I squeeze the front.  If I need to stop quick or from higher speeds, then I use both brakes together.

[Hondo]

Your front brake is the primary brake on any motorcycle. It will provide something like 75% of the stopping capacity.

I always use my front brake and either use the rear at the same time or bring in the rear later.

Using the rear brake most of the time IMO is a bad habit, as it is inviting a highside if you lock it up in a turn, or really anytime.

Here's an example of what happens when too much brake is applied in a turn- a classic highside -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzsScCnW9AA&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=highside&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&s

another example-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWWuW4U73s&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=highside&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&s

[tkimmons85]

I have to agree.In a riding class I took years ago they said front to rear ratio was front 75% and back 25%.Depending on the situation the rear brake was either applied after the front, or lightly in conjunction with the front. I dont know, I guess every rider has his own riding style.All I know is I dont want to do what the guy in the video did. Especially on my cb700 , that would suck.

[Bumblebee]

I always use my front brake and either use the rear at the same time or bring in the rear later.

Using the rear brake most of the time IMO is a bad habit, as it is inviting a highside if you lock it up in a turn, or really anytime.

It takes surprisingly little rear brake and very little speed to set yourself up for a low/high side crash.


Today on the way home: I'm going 15mph tops just as I roll straight out of the outside lane of a double right turn. Cager goes wide making a right turn and takes my lane. I immediately go left to avoid collision and roll right to avoid the curb then grab the front brake to eliminate the hazard. No big deal, been there done that kind of thing many times. The guy in front of us jumps one lane left and STOPS for no reason way WAY too close ahead. I load up the front brake, verify straight motion and touched the rear brake very lightly and out it goes to the left then squirms right and oscillates. I'm thinking hold the brake and wait for the full stop. Now I'm facing going into the back of Mr Brakes and getting run down by Mr Comatose Lane Changer. HOLD THE FRIGGING BRAKE ANYWAY. During all this I hit a bump or go over a big road snake or something that bounces me a little and my right foot comes up slightly and I lose the rear brake with the wheels about a tire width out of alignment. OMFG the dynamics are aggressive and brutal!!!!! The rear wheel teleported right about 15 degrees off alignment then jumped left like it was powered by a Russian ejection seat motor way to the right before catching rolling traction again. It was 2 more uncontrolled dampened oscillations before it was under control again. I managed to not go down or get pitched over the bars however even at around 5mph the dynamics that set you up for a high side are more than enough to cause no end of grief. I was just along for the ride and had no control of anything. It was purely the dynamics of the situation that kept me upright.

Lessons of the day:
* Never use the outside lane in a double turn lane unless you're driving a monster such as a RV or preferably a dump truck. The inside cage is likely to swing wide into you. You can control that situation from the inside lane.
* Rear brake is bad for anything other than reducing stopping distance that the front brake has set in a straight line. I very cautiously just *barely* touched that brake and the rear wheel stopped turning and slid out.
* A loose grip on the bars seemed to help by not getting the front wheel involved in the oscillation game after the rear tire regains traction. Even that has minimal advantage. At higher speed or further out of alignment and that'll turn into a tank slapper high side in about a billionth of a second. Once it starts, the sequence of events is fixed.
* No matter how cautious you are or how well you train yourself or even react to a situation or how calm you are reacting to things, something totally unexpected can happen to take you deep into ATGATT country.
* Rip out that totally useless piece of junk meep meep horn and install a stebel freight train horn.

[83 550sc]

 I mainly use the rear brake to trigger my brake light when in traffic or gradually slowing but when it's pucker time in a semi straight line, I'm on both.  
 I'm probably the boringest road rider you'll meet, but if I bite the big one it shouldn't happen because I screwed up. Get me upon anything that's not on the black grinder and it's a much different story.

[gammer]

Front brake only for majority of stops. For faster stops or if I have someone on the back then I use mostly front and add rear as needed.

I grew up on dirt bikes and I used to race motocross for many years. It was a big help in learning the limits of braking and just how fast you can stop a bike.

[tkimmons85]

Okay so heres a bit of bad news. I had a friend that just bought a brand new 08 suzuki 600. While on a riding trip to galtlinburg, Tn he crashed it. He was going around a turn knee down and misused the rear brake. He was thrown hi side off the bike and totally screwed up his new ride. Ouch

[happycommuter]

I really must argue against the mentality of 'saving' the rear brakes for use as some sort of back-up or auxiliary stopping power.  I used to do this, and I used to always lock my rear wheel on panic stops - fishtailing, wheel hopping, tire squealing, a real mess. 

Then I learned that I was locking up because I was applying the rear brake after pushing the center of gravity way forward with threshold front braking - literally uncompressing the rear suspension* and removing almost all of the weight** from the rear wheel, then expecting it to help me stop.  To make matters worse, it's a bit too late for gradual addition of rear brake when you've reached sphincter-pucker time: you stomp and stomp hard as it's a bit late to start using proper technique now that a crash is imminent.

I have not locked up since getting in the habit of giving a tap to the brake pedal as I start squeezing the hand lever.   I know rear drum brakes are probably very hard to lock, but good practice is good practice.  The rear is there for stability as much as stopping power.  Why hope that the rear wheel will stay on the ground, behind the front wheel, when you can just put your foot down and make it happen?

*One great pointer from Lee Parks' Total Control is to keep the bike very level during braking (and shifting).  Nose-diving and hobby-horsing are signs of poor technique that consume excessive suspension travel and alter steering geometry. 

**You need weight on the wheel for traction.  I can lightly graze my palm across a sander till it's a bloody nub, or I can push harder and get enough traction to stop the thing.  Same thing with a wheel and the road.  With unchanged coefficient of friction, you get higher friction

[xxxbotchlaxxx]

my msf instructor hammered on both brakes everytime with a progressive squeeze. 

[gammer]

I think the trick is to adjust the center of balance with your body when your front end dives.
But in all honesty, if you are braking far enough in advance, the front should dive very little, even with front brake only.

[gammer]

I tested my braking beliefs on the way into work this morning.

First I tried braking slowly with front brake only...giving plenty of time to stop. And as predicted, the front dove very little and I didn't have to adjust my body very much.

Then I tried braking very fast with front only and the front end dove quite a bit and I stopped fast.

Then I broke hard with front and back brakes and the front end still dove but I stopped faster.

In conclusion (in my mind), the rear brake is there to assist you in stopping.

[MrF]

In conclusion (in my mind), the rear brake is there to assist you in stopping.

Concur.  I'd file this under "If you're not supposed to use it, then why is it there?"

[happycommuter]

Concur.  I'd file this under "If you're not supposed to use it, then why is it there?"

Even on modern racebikes where the rear contributes a tenth of the total stopping power, the weight of the system is deemed worthwhile.

[xxxbotchlaxxx]

just don't use it in a turn is the general idea right?  it offers max stopping power to use it, just make sure you do not overdo it and the bike is straight 

[gammer]

Thats right. All your braking should be done before the turn...you should actually be accelerating around a turn (or at the very least, coasting).
Also, you should try and shift before or after a turn...not during, as it can throw your balance off.

[CraigF]

Bumping an older thread....

Something disconnected in my brain the other day and I was having trouble properly braking.  I locked up the back wheel twice. 

I realized what I was doing wrong--for some reason I started squeezing the clutch along with the front brake and when I wasn't stopping quick enough I'd add more back brake and locked it up.

Call it a rookie mistake, I guess.  I have no idea why that day I stopped using engine braking to assist in stopping.   

It takes a lot longer distance to stop with only two of the 3 brakes on the bike.   

Before that day, and since, I've stopped as my MSF instructor taught me---slight squeeze of he front along with slight press of the back, then squeeze the front harder.  (All while leaving the clutch out and using proper downshifting.)