Help with starting my 650

[layback209]

Well the 84 650 knighthawk is my first bike, picked it up a week ago with what was left from my tax return 

Heres the kicker, the only time it ran was the day i brought it home? I tryed to start it a few days latter but only got a dead battery.

So for the past couple of days i have been charging the battery and trying to start the bike:

-i only hold the starter button for a 5-7sec and let go. I'm afraid of wrecking something
-I have no idea where to start with this. So i pulled the 2 out side plugs and checked for spark (separatly), i couldn't see a spark when the engine was cranking but when i grabbed one of them i got a bit of a shock. so i know there getting some current. but i don't think there is enough spark here to start the bike.

I'm a total nubee when it comes to bikes. Any idea's, thoughts, pointers would be apreciated.

I don't think its the battery. It cranks like crazy when i try it after charging, but it doesn't last that long is that normal?

P.S. i don't have an owners manuel or anything. Ive been hunting around the city and am haveing problems finding anything for this bike. Would be nice to know:
-what grade of fuel
-what weight of oil
-how to remove the air box so i can check the filter lol..etc.

[happycommuter]

I have to ask... are you using the choke?

[Bumblebee]

If it doesn't start in 5-7 second, it's probably not going to start. No point in wrecking the starter.
If you got popped, you probably have adequate spark. You'll see the spark if it's not overly bright out and the plug is in contact with the engine case. Up in the air and it won't do anything.

Start at the beginning:
Spark plugs back in. Spark wires back on all plugs and pushed down to make sure they're all secure.
Transmission in netural
Adequate fuel
Fuel selector ON - Set to REServe if the fuel is low or unknown quantity
Choke full on
Engine kill switch on
Throttle slightly open
Ignition On
Start
What happens?

[xxxbotchlaxxx]

fuel valve on? killswitch set to run?  Remember that you need three things to start her, spark, gas and air... oh and compression,  if there seems to be spark, move on to gas, make sure your carbs are getting the go juice, I have been bewildered a few times after I removed and reinstalled my tank and forgot to turn to petcock back to on.  If on is not doing it, go to reserve.  along the same route, make sure your petcocks vaccuum hose is connected to the carb, it wont put out any gas without it.

try bump starting it, if that works, I would suspect the battery
push it up a hill, get on, pull the clutch and get coasting, make sure you are in second and the bike is completely on, then pop the clutch, if it starts up and takes off, I would assume your battery just isnt charging well

try all of the above and get back to us

[layback209]

Sweet thanx for the quick responces.

fuel valve on? killswitch set to run?

yep, yep. Ive made that mistake a few times already

I have to ask... are you using the choke?

yep, but if you read bellow it apears as if the engine fluds really fast. so i was trying to find the "sweet spot" with out any success.

So i had a few buddies over tonight to help me out this is what we did. (i was going to do this anyway but i wont say no to help lol).

-pulled the plugs again. They were coated in fuel.
-dryed them out with a lighter and butane torch. then wiped them off and put them back in
-Spun the engine over with the fuel in the off position (hoping to burn off what was in the cylinders may not of been the best idea). got a few "thumps kinda deep week pops out of it. Turned the gas on got few more thumps then nothing just cranking.
-repeated the above, plugs were coated with fuel again. Got a few more pops this time but not enough to start it.
-In the end we couldn't get her to fire

Stuff was kinda happening pretty fast there is a chance the plug wires got mixed up. Thats the problem with help you lose track of whats going on lol. anyone have a diagram i could refernce my setup with? The wires only reach the cylinders they are ment for but for peace of mind i would like to rule that out for sure.

I also noticed that the spark plugs had a rather large gap in them. Any one know what is recomended?

We were about to try the bump starting thing but i chickend out My buddy wanted to pull me behind his truck and i didn't see that turning out to well. For the time being we were using a battery boster so we should have had good current and voltage.

I'm thinking/hopeing that the plugs may be "dead." The PO said the bike had been sitting for 2 years the plugs could have got fouled??? I'll pick up some new plugs and try the routeen agian tomorrow, if this seems like a resonable idea?

Thanx again for the quick replies

cheers,

Derek

[Bumblebee]

-pulled the plugs again. They were coated in fuel.
-Spun the engine over with the fuel in the off position (hoping to burn off what was in the cylinders may not of been the best idea). got a few "thumps kinda deep week pops out of it. Turned the gas on got few more thumps then nothing just cranking.

The deep pop thumps mean it's trying to start but has way too much fuel.

Flooded engine.
Plugs out, kill switch off, engage starter a few times, sit it out in the sun if possible, wait an hour or so before reinstalling the plugs.

Stuff was kinda happening pretty fast there is a chance the plug wires got mixed up. Thats the problem with help you lose track of whats going on lol.

That's why you mark the wires before pulling them. Fix it before another start attempt. You do not want them firing 180 degrees out of sequence.

Too many hands in the toolbox often causes more problems than it's worth - especially if the extra hands are just guessing and don't have experience working on a specific type engine/vehicle setup.

I also noticed that the spark plugs had a rather large gap in them. Any one know what is recomended?

0.024-0.028" is typical. They will start at 0.035" but it's not the most efficient setting. Don't eyeball it, get the right tool and measure each one individually and set the gap as needed.
Too big of a gap and it'll flood like the symptoms you're describing.

My buddy wanted to pull me behind his truck and i didn't see that turning out to well.

Do not do that. That falls in the "hey bubba hold my my uh beaer and uh watch uh this" category. No good can come from it unless you're after road rash and trying to drag the bike on it's side. He's likely to drag it 100 feet before he realizes you fell down the instant the rope pulled tight. Besides, if the starter is spinning the engine, you don't need to bump start anyway.

I'm thinking/hopeing that the plugs may be "dead." The PO said the bike had been sitting for 2 years the plugs could have got fouled???

It's been sitting for 2 years? That's new information.
Engines do not like sitting. It's bad for them. Engines like to be run. It keeps them healthy.

Sitting doesn't usually foul plugs in this type engine. If you look at the plugs and they look clean and not crudded up, they're probably good.

Three things:
1. Get rid of the old fuel and use new fuel.
2. It's very possible the carburetors are laquered up with old fuel. That can generate all sorts of annoying problems. Sunk floats or frozen open float valves, plugged up internal carburetor plumbing, frozen vacuum pistons if your engine has them, gummed up throttle or choke valves, cracked rubber hoses that connect to the carburetor or fuel lines, etc. The symptoms vary depending on what is actually messed up. There are over 300 parts in a 4 cylinder CV carburetor. Don't start randomly yanking stuff apart unless you have a good idea what you're doing and have the patience to do the job right.
3. A systematic approach is the only way to actually fix any engine problem properly. Go find a shop manual of some kind for the specific motorcycle you have. Any self respecting motorcycle shop should be able to get it for you if they don't have it on the shelf. The original shop manual from Honda would be best. A clymers or whatever is out there is supposedly good too. Do not worry about the price tag on the manual. If you're going to ride for any length of time, it will pay for itself many many times over.

[detdrbuzzard]

check the vaccume line going to the fuel valve if it comes off (mine does once in a while ) no gas will flow put the fuel valve on reserve and see what happens if you cannot reach the vacume line but do reinstall the line or you will have no reserve in the tank

[layback209]

BumbleBee  I really appreciate you taking the time time to type all that up for me. Excellent responce!!!!

Flooded engine.
Plugs out, kill switch off, engage starter a few times, sit it out in the sun if possible, wait an hour or so before reinstalling the plugs

I will be trying this tonight after i check the gap on the plugs.  Make more sense then what we were doing.

Too many hands in the toolbox often causes more problems than it's worth

I pretty much closed the garage door and told my Buddy's to f off. after they randomly pulled the plugs off

It's been sitting for 2 years? That's new information

Sorry. I totally forgot to put that in earlier. Thats the main reason why i want to get it running again.

i also left out that:
-I syphoned out the old fuel and put 10$ worth of premium in. Didn't know what grade of fuel to put in, i run regular in everything else and never had a problem?

I'm a patient guy and want to get everything done right, there is no rush to get this beast on the street but...i would like to here it rumbling again :). Ill try and hunt down one of those Manuel's to help me out. I have the Hayes Manuel's for my other vehicles i should be able to get a Honda one for this bike.

check the vacuum line going to the fuel valve if it comes off (mine does once in a while ) no gas will flow put the fuel valve on reserve and see what happens if you cannot reach the vacuum line but do reinstall the line or you will have no reserve in the tank

Mine is dry and has a crack at the fitting, it will need replacing.

Thanks again

Derek

[dbracing]

So it's been sitting for 2 years.......
- you could have a stuck needle valve in one or more of the carbs allowing it to flood

I would squirt some starting fluid(ether) in the airbox after you get the plugs checked for gap and the wires on the correct plugs and see what happens. If it is going to start, it should then. If you have stale old gas in the tank, this should move it through the carbs quickly and get the fresh gas in sooner.

Been down this path a time or two before and I learned to try one thing at a time until everything works out. That way, you learn what was wrong.

Good Luck!!

[detdrbuzzard]

have one of the guys here look at their bike if you cannot figure out which plug goes where. they can point out which  plug goes in  #1, #2 ect, ect

[layback209]

have one of the guys here look at their bike if you cannot figure out which plug goes where. they can point out which  plug goes in  #1, #2 ect, ect

I think i figgured this out. I pulled the ouside plug, grounded it on one of the VC bolts and felt for when air was being pushed through the cylinder spark plug hole (durring cranking) and watched for a corresponding spark. So i think this part is strightened out.

-I regaped the plugs they were at 0.035 just like bumblebee had stated. I set them to 0.026
-let the engine sit with the plugs out for 2hours so the fuel could vaporate
-put the dryed plugs back in, no go week battery

charged her, tryed cranking agian and got 2 more of the deep pop/thumps. then that was it. So this is what i'm thinking. Got fuel, got air (well mabey i should check the air filter haven't done that yet), seems like a week spark problem.

*Bike cranks good, maybe the starter is robing all the current?
*I guess the best way to problem solve the above would be to try a push start. But i have to trick the bike into droping into geer. I think it has a safety thing where it wont let you put it in geer when its not running? So to get around that i have to crank the bike so the red light on the dash goes out (i think its oil pressure), then i can put it in geer.

I'll have another go tomorrow.

Cheers,

[xxxbotchlaxxx]

it often wont go into gear unless you pull the clutch and roll it, mine won't shift unless I move the rear wheel ever so slightly, if it is up on the center stand you will have to drop it, the only way to efficiently do this is to get the bike into neutral, get it going with the clutch pulled, then when you have some speed, prolly 10-15 mph, click up once into second and let out the clutch, barring a real electrical problem, the engine will be turned over by the rear wheel and you should be on your way, if that doesnt work, you better go through the ignition system one item at a time

[xxxbotchlaxxx]

something else, do we know that fuel is flowing through the carbs? the cracked vacuum line has me concerned

[Bumblebee]

I think i figgured this out. I pulled the ouside plug, grounded it on one of the VC bolts and felt for when air was being pushed through the cylinder spark plug hole (durring cranking) and watched for a corresponding spark. So i think this part is strightened out.

I question that method though you may have got it right by chance. Your biological computer probably isn't up to fixing timing issues. I have to use a timing gun, timing marks, or wiring diagrams for such things...

charged her, tryed cranking agian and got 2 more of the deep pop/thumps. then that was it. So this is what i'm thinking. Got fuel, got air (well mabey i should check the air filter haven't done that yet), seems like a week spark problem.

*Bike cranks good, maybe the starter is robing all the current?

Starters are power hogs. BUT - unless you're cranking for long periods of time or leaving the headlight on, it sounds like you have an old battery that needs to be replaced. OR have you checked the battery water level? If the water level is low, that cuts into cranking/reserve amps like you can't believe. Charging for days and only getting a few start attempts? I can play around for days without a start and not run the battery down. $40-50 will fix that problem.

When you tried it the last time, did you pull the plugs to see if it's flooded again? Or just started making assumptions?

A cracked vacuum line to the tank? A teeny crack that you can't even see can easily shut your fuel off faster than light travels.

I think it has a safety thing where it wont let you put it in geer when its not running? So to get around that i have to crank the bike so the red light on the dash goes out (i think its oil pressure), then i can put it in geer.

Huh? There is no in-gear safety on them at all like you're describing. The closest thing is the starter won't engage if it's in gear and the clutch isn't engaged. That won't stop you from shifting gears with the engine off. Take the power train load off (wheel off the ground or not holding against the engine compression via the chain) the gears and click up and down through all 5 gears with the engine off. If you can't do that you're into another set of unrelated problems. Red light is oil pressure. I don't see why you would want to bump start it if the starter is turning the engine. Diagnosing is a lot easier with a starter than while pushing the motorcycle all over the county.


Go get the book and go through the no start trouble shooting sequence and check each thing individually to make sure it's working properly.

Diagnosing via internet is horrific at best. That said, my instincts are saying chase the fuel/air supply problem. Either it's not getting fuel or it's flooding or the engine is being strangled for air.

[xxxbotchlaxxx]

air is easy to check, take the filter out

[layback209]

GOT HER FIRED TODAY yehaaa! 

I did the push start, took 2 attempts to get it to go. I forgot to turn the fuel on too  but it still went for half a block before quiting lol. Once the engine was warmed up the starter had no problem starting the bike. 

something else, do we know that fuel is flowing through the carbs? the cracked vacuum line has me concerned

This will be replaced ASAP. Haven't had the chance to run over to auto value yet.

Huh? There is no in-gear safety on them at all like you're describing

Ya i sound like a fool. By the sounds of things its just my inexperience with bikes, i was doing stuff straight up wrong... like bike off try to shift into first with out pulling clutch... listening to some bad advice from the PO didn't help this part much. Thats where i got the safety idea.

When you tried it the last time, did you pull the plugs to see if it's flooded again? Or just started making assumptions?

Yes i definitely did, i don't think i needed to though you could smell the unburnt gas. I am an engineering student i try to base my assumptions on something lol.

it sounds like you have an old battery that needs to be replaced. OR have you checked the battery water level? If the water level is low, that cuts into cranking/reserve amps like you can't believe

The water level is in the operating zone. It seems like the more i cycle this battery the more cranking time i get out of it. But ya once i start commuting i will put a fresh guy in. I'm not going to push start it in the shoulder.

Go get the book and go through the no start trouble shooting sequence and check each thing individually to make sure it's working properly

Its been ordered.

I appreciate all the help.

[detdrbuzzard]

put fuel valve on reserve, it will bypass the vaccume so fuel will flow