Danger at red lights

[isleofmanfan]

I've been noticing, especially the last couple summers, a potentially dangerous trend that puts us riders at risk.  People of all classes and ages are using their Blackberries and phones as they approach a red light.  They ARE NOT seeing, in some cases, the motorcyclist sitting at the light.  I haven't seen an accident, but I've seen close calls.

When sitting waiting for a light to change, WATCH YOUR MIRRORS!  In some cases you may want to keep your bike in gear in case you need to avoid a cager.

Enjoy the summer!

[Bumblebee]

In ALL cases you may MUST keep your bike in gear in case you need to avoid a cager.

Fixed.

ALWAYS have an escape route ahead (no squid sandwitch stops 6 inches from the rear bumper of a cage) until there are at least two and preferably three high mass cages stopped behind you.

[gammer]

I've been practicing this defensive driving technique this summer. After reading about a couple of motorcyclists who were killed from getting rear-ended, I decided to:
- stop and leave ample room in front of me
- mark out a route to take in case someone isn't going to stop in time
- leave my bike in gear
- check my mirrors while braking and while stopped

I've also been tempted to wear one of bright orange road workers vests too.

[skramer360]

I'm pretty lucky in this respect. I only have 2 lights on the way to work, and three on the way home. I rarely have to stop at more than one of them per day.

[happycommuter]

At first glance, I thought this was about riders playing with toys during lights, as I've seen that at least once.

I'm not big on sitting in gear, but then I usually have stopped traffic behind me in no time.  When at a less crowded intersection, I'll stare in the mirrors and flash the brake light as the first car nears until their deceleration rate meets my approval.

If someone could explain to me how you are supposed to have an escape route at a light without being to far out of lane as to invite 'sharing,' (this HAS happened to me, and I haven't always seen it coming) please fill me in.  I'm also confused as to what split second I should make this decision so that I'm not constantly jumping the gun.

[Bumblebee]

As you approach a stop behind cages, determine which side has the widest escape route between cages. Roll to a stop about 15 feet back anywhere in the lane you want to stop at while aimed directly at the escape path. Actually stopping slightly sideways helps visibility in one of your mirrors to see what's coming up from behind.

Which split second? Choose the one that your instincts say run then get on the throttle and don't hesitate. It's MUCH less troublesome to end up 3-4 cages ahead between cages in a weird location with people looking at you like you're crazy than it is to become a squid sandwich. Don't stop until you're at least 3 cages ahead because impact forces can shove multiple vehicles together and you want to be as far from the crashing sounds as possible. Most rear endings I've seen shove at the rear two stopped vehicles into stopped vehicle #3. I've used my escape route probably a dozen times because I didn't like what I saw behind me. One of those times the cage behind me rammed the one in front of me at probably 35-40mph. It..just..takes..once.

[gammer]

As you approach a stop behind cages, determine which side has the widest escape route between cages.

+1 on this technique. This is pretty much what I do too.
I stop with at least one car length (++) between me and the car in front. As I'm stopping I pic the side that has the 'least resistance' to zip between, if needed. Once stopped I keep checking my rear view, and ready at the "trigger finger" (hand ready on throttle). I usually ease up and relax a bit one a car or two is safely stopped behind me.
If its an intersection I'm familiar with (knowledge of how long stop lights are), and I have many cars safely stopped behind me, then I will put it in neutral.

One other note: Bikes stop faster then cars...so if I think I'm making a fast stop, I will keep an eye on my mirror as I'm braking.

[Burgi]

As you approach a stop behind cages, determine which side has the widest escape route between cages. Roll to a stop about 15 feet back anywhere in the lane you want to stop at

Are you saying to sit 15 feet behind the car in front of you?
If so this wouldn't work where I am at. Cars would cut in from the side to fill the gap. The driver behind me would be screaming for me to move up, most likely pushing me if I refused

[weldaround]

   ya, this is a good subject!!  I was riding my CBR a few months ago and got to this intersection and had this huge 4 by 4 in front of me.  This young driver darts in to the intersection and discovers that he just did a very bad thing  so while watching this I'm thinking that this guy can't see me because I'm all bent over my tank like a dog humping a football and looking at his tailgate like my neighbours six foot fence all I see is this tail gate way up in the air so I'm not even going to stick around for this one!  So, I put in in first and drop the clutch like I was holding on to a fire cracker and tare off to the side far away from the masher  now I sit and watch the masher throw in into revers and back up a good ten feet futher than he was originally sitting, basically would have ran me over and not even known till he heard the crash    So having a place to be other than where you are can be great!!  You think you have to worry about your back then some jack @ss cager tries to take you out with a frontal assult    some one told me that if you ride like everyones out to run you off the road, you will improve your odds at staying alive.  

weldaround.........

[Brittles]

Another thing to be careful about is someone following too close and a green light changes to red. You can easily stop for the light, but can/will the cage behind you?  It's sometimes safer to go ahead and run the red light.

[gammer]

If so this wouldn't work where I am at. Cars would cut in from the side to fill the gap. The driver behind me would be screaming for me to move up, most likely pushing me if I refused

I don't know how bumblebee would answer this, but I think you would have to weigh out the options. Is it safer to leave the space and risk having someone fill the gap? or, pull up close and risk getting sandwiched?

Personally I leave the car length space in front of me when no one is behind me while stopping...so I have more room to maneuver. But, if there is someone behind me while stopping, and I observe in my mirrors that the are stopping with me, then I can close the gap between me and the car in front.

[LOKi]

As you approach a stop behind cages, determine which side has the widest escape route between cages. Roll to a stop about 15 feet back anywhere in the lane you want to stop at

Are you saying to sit 15 feet behind the car in front of you?
If so this wouldn't work where I am at. Cars would cut in from the side to fill the gap. The driver behind me would be screaming for me to move up, most likely pushing me if I refused

Isn't lane splitting legal where you live? That would mean filtering too. That in itself has risks too. If you always move up to the front of the line then there is a risk of an accident in the intersection taking you out. Maybe the best spot to pull up to would be 3 cars from the front and at least 3 cars from the back.

[Burgi]

Isn't lane splitting legal where you live? That would mean filtering too. That in itself has risks too. If you always move up to the front of the line then there is a risk of an accident in the intersection taking you out. Maybe the best spot to pull up to would be 3 cars from the front and at least 3 cars from the back.

Yes, filtering would be my first choice, since it makes a rear ender far more difficult. I would choose to be full to the front. Prefer not to try to jockey into a space between cars since sometimes they may not want to give way, better to be off and away in the front when the light goes green.
It is not always possible though so sitting in the queue must be done. If this is the case I typically choose a slight angle (larger profile) usually towards the left side (making myself visible in the sideview mirror in the car to the front of me) leaving just enough space to also be visible in their rearview mirror or pull forward next to them if the situation behind me warrants.

[rwilli1228]

Another thing to be careful about is someone following too close and a green light changes to red. You can easily stop for the light, but can/will the cage behind you?  It's sometimes safer to go ahead and run the red light.

I live in a city where every cage rides ass.  Jen, you know. (In GA you can be a complete idiot to drive.  They don't even require you to know how to read!)  Got a good scare once while stopping for a sudden red light.  The car behind me screached tires and swerved to the other lane (thank God!).  From that day forward I have done exactly what you just described.  Haven't been pulled over yet from running a light in this situation but I hope the officer would understand.   

[LOKi]

rather get a ticket than squashed like grape.

[Bumblebee]

rather get a ticket than squashed like grape.

Safety Third

Legal Eighth

[Vermontster]

Safety information like this wasn't mentioned in the MSF course I took. Since reading about red-light safety in these threads I've watched my mirrors like a hawk, and flash my brake light as drivers approach. I will now begin pointing the bike towards my escape route too. to all who continue to pass on your wisdom and experience!!

[isleofmanfan]

There is some excellent information in this thread.  I hope all forum members, especially newbies, read it and think it over.  Hospital food sucks, and its VERY expensive!

Thanks to all that contributed to this thread

-Isleofmanfan

[ninskrillz]

I usually flash my brake light with the front brake when sitting at a light, its become habit which is good.

[Brittles]

I usually flash my brake light with the front brake when sitting at a light, its become habit which is good.

Yeah, that's a good thing.

I do it as well, depending on the situation.

[Brittles]

While we're on the safety subject I'll tell you something I do to try and increase my odds. As we all know, alot of motorcycle accidents are caused by someone turning left in front of you (my worst fear) and they do that because they simply don't see you. Same with someone entering the roadway your on.  When in these situations I weave the bike back and forth in my lane to make myself more visible. People probably think I'm crazy, but I don't really care.

[Bumblebee]

While we're on the safety subject I'll tell you something I do to try and increase my odds. As we all know, alot of motorcycle accidents are caused by someone turning left in front of you (my worst fear) and they do that because they simply don't see you. Same with someone entering the roadway your on.  When in these situations I weave the bike back and forth in my lane to make myself more visible. People probably think I'm crazy, but I don't really care.

Good point.

A weave at eye level with cages behind you, while much better than staying stationary, doesn't give them much new information to go on. Horizontal displacement and lane changes is normal at intersections to the point that it's background information. Vertical displacement OTOH is outside their lack of training and their only instinct is to stomp the brake pedal through the floor... This is assuming they happen to notice which is, at best, russian roulette with a belt fed gatlin gun.

I find myself decelerating, downshifting, swerving in the lane and standing up quickly on the pegs when someone starts creeping forward in a left turn lane. Of course once you're up on the pegs, steering and braking effectiveness is reduced considerably so you MUST have plan B, C, D and E ready for the increased risk you put yourself at. (BTW, about 1 in every 50 or so extremely close tailgaters will whitesmoke their tires when you maneuver like that, touch the brake light then stand up at highway speeds - I got another one today that insisted on aggressively running up my exhaust pipes and staying there in heavy traffic that nearly boxed me in)


The ones that creep me out is the left turners that MUST turn behind you as close as possible..preferably close enough to take the tail lights off the bike...even if the next cage is five miles behind you. I get at least 2-3 per month that if I hadn't maneuvered aggressively, they would have certainly taken me down.

[LOKi]

While we're on the safety subject I'll tell you something I do to try and increase my odds. As we all know, alot of motorcycle accidents are caused by someone turning left in front of you (my worst fear) and they do that because they simply don't see you. Same with someone entering the roadway your on.  When in these situations I weave the bike back and forth in my lane to make myself more visible. People probably think I'm crazy, but I don't really care.

This might have more Merritt than you think. The real big problem for motorcycles is that they are so skinny it's hard to tell how fast they are going and how far away they are. The same way people fail to see a train bearing down on them. Depth perception is the combination of your two eyes and the difference between them. What about people with only one eye? There is a trick if you only have one eye and that is to move your head from side to side. Then your brain will combine the two images to give depth. If just moving your head side to side helps one eye people see depth then moving the bike back and forth would help the depthely (not a word but should be) challenged see your skinny arse. It does attract attention. So I can't see it hurting one way or another. Moving back and forth also gets your momentum going in that lateral plane. So a quick change in direction is easier. Like a boxer hopping around.

Then again I might be completely out of my mind.     

[ROJ]

Weaving does another thing to those who are slightly paying attention. They don't know what you're doing and they think that you may cause an accident, so they will keep back a little more. But there are those that will try to pass you extremely dangerously so you don't cause an accident with them. I've had good luck around here and most people stay at least 5-7 feet behind me and don't ride my tail pipe.

[Bumblebee]

I've had good luck around here and most people stay at least 5-7 feet behind me and don't ride my tail pipe.

 

15 feet IS riding your tailpipe even at 20mph. 5-7 feet is deliberate premeditated attempted murder at any speed. That's deep inside the impact before reaction distance. Grab a handful of brake and even a computer couldn't stop the cage before impact at that range.