Knowledge is useful. Understanding is more useful.

[Bumblebee]

I was digging through some of my reference material on a search for something near-completely non motorcycle related and blundered across an old motorcycle link I have that should be of interest.

While I don't totally agree with everything said, and some of it is very rudimentary, it's a good start on explaining real world riding dynamics that should also clear up some basic riding misconceptions that I've seen come up here and elsewhere on occasion.

http://www.msgroup.org/default.aspx
Specifically read the 258 safety tips starting here:
http://www.msgroup.org/articles.aspx?Set=001-033



Information is useless. Knowledge is just accessable Information. Understanding of how the Information and Knowledge relates as a complete dynamic whole system to the real world is useful. Always...Keep...Learning...

[gammer]

Wow Bee...
I just perused some of the safety tips, and they are really well done; put into words very well.

[ROJ]

The tips I have read so far are pretty good, thanks for posting the link.

[skramer360]

I read through many of the tips. One I was wondering about was the "covering" of the clutch and brake levers. He was advocating covering the brake lever almost all the time except very low speed. Do people do this? I almost never do this except coming up to a light when I know I'm stopping. Just wondering. The other one I didn't agree with was not downshifting until you were stopped. That just seems dangerous to me.

[Bumblebee]

One I was wondering about was the "covering" of the clutch and brake levers. He was advocating covering the brake lever almost all the time except very low speed. Do people do this? I almost never do this except coming up to a light when I know I'm stopping. Just wondering. The other one I didn't agree with was not downshifting until you were stopped. That just seems dangerous to me.

Depending on the environment, I'll cover the brake and clutch. Open road, no side roads, minimal risk of critter attacks, no. Heavy traffic in a city, absolutely.

How could not downshifting before stopping be dangerous assuming no outside threats are present? I downshift as I decelerate. However if I'm going from 60mph to stopped, you won't catch me bumping into first while it's still rolling at 50mph. It's speed and gearing ratio dependent shifting.

Overall it's a well written series of safety tips overall.... But it's just information which on it's own is useless. Understanding of the full dynamic system and how things integrate is essential for proper application.

[gammer]

Yeah, I down shift while decelerating if I know/think I am going to need to apply throttle again before I stop. If I clearly see that I am going to stop, then I might not downshift to first until just before I stop.

[ROJ]

I usually downshift to help in deceleration, but there a re times when I just hold the clutch in and downshift thruogh the gears without releasing the clutch. In my MSF, during the emergency evasive manoeuvers, we would be going at speed in 3rd gear, be told to stop, check our blind spot behind us and then continue around the "car" in front of us that caused the emergency stop as quickly as we can. As with what Bumblebee said, its not dangerous unless you downshift to 1st gear and release the clutch without any braking, and still going 50mph.  Thats just a cause for testing your crash gear.

[skramer360]

My thought about dangerous is if you wait to downshift until your are stopped, ie come to a stop and the trans is still in say 5th or 6th gear. Then there is a situation like ROJ said where you need to take off quick your stuck in high gear and can't go until downshifting. In an emergency stop I will definitely stop and then downshift, but under normal situations I always shift down to be in the appropriate gear for the speed.

[Hondo]

He remade his site I see.

Some of the information there is good, other info just flat out wrong.

[Rusty B]

The big question Hondo is how to sort through the info and decide what is good and what is just wrong??
 I have been riding since the early 70's, and have had several bikes from a CB90 to a Gold Wing.
I stopped riding about 94 and have just started back.
I feel like I have a lot of catching up to do.
I now have a 95 NH 750 and love being able to ride again.
I started last night reading these safety rules, and explinations.
I figure to read a new section each night till I finish.
I agree that some of them don't sound just right, but I will read them all, and sort through the Chaff and keep the good stuff.

Rusty   

[hockeyhawk]

My thought about dangerous is if you wait to downshift until your are stopped, ie come to a stop and the trans is still in say 5th or 6th gear. Then there is a situation like ROJ said where you need to take off quick your stuck in high gear and can't go until downshifting. In an emergency stop I will definitely stop and then downshift, but under normal situations I always shift down to be in the appropriate gear for the speed.

Skramer, I agree with you 100%. I always down shift as i'm slowing down. I usually only down shift to 2nd unless im at a stop or a very, very slow rolling speed before down shifting to 1st.

Ride Safe 

[Hondo]

The best recommendation I have for good, solid, proven information are the books by David Houge, Proficient Motorcycling 1 & 2.

[Maxx]

I down shift in a consistent manner in relation to my speed and and rpm. I try to keep my gearing where if I need to nail it to get out of trouble I'm there. Just like racing.

Now back road cruising is different than when in the city.

[Bumblebee]

Some of the information there is good, other info just flat out wrong.

Agreed. It's a start for discussions on things that a lot of people simply don't think about until they end up dealing with it.

That site has gone through about 3 or 4 changes since I first found it.

[Hondo]

The way I look at in motorcycling and flying is this-

There are 2 parts of riding- procedure & technique.

Procedure is the way something has to be done, or has been proven to be the only way to do something, or is based upon physics. A good example of this would be brake usage, more importantly using both brakes.

This will allow maximum performance braking every time.

Technique on the other hand is how the rider chooses to ride or implement procedure. A good example of this is mistakenly using the rear brake only (after hearing the BS floating around the industry that using your front brake will send you over the handlebars). A rider that uses this technique will one day impact an imovable object for following this ignorant technique.

Many sites & books state technique as fact/procedure when it isn't, and talking about it usually draws out the truth.

That's the way I look at it anyways -

[Maxx]

Today I actually found myself only using the rear brake for a couple of slow speed quick turns.

[Hondo]

Today I actually found myself only using the rear brake for a couple of slow speed quick turns.

Technique.....

[ROJ]

The way I look at in motorcycling and flying is this-

There are 2 parts of riding- procedure & technique.

+1, same goes for SCUBA Diving, there is how things should be done, and how people actually do them. The worst I've found is that some people will read a procedure, then think they know the technique without ever practising it. The best is to read the procedure, read the background as to why it is proven/the only way to do things, especially the physics part, then go out and try it. Its better to train for an emergency that never happens than to be unprepared for an emergency that does happen.

[Bumblebee]

The worst I've found is that some people will read a procedure, then think they know the technique without ever practising it. The best is to read the procedure, read the background as to why it is proven/the only way to do things, especially the physics part, then go out and try it.

The problem with riding or driving, unlike flying, (though I've seen some unbelievably stupid stuff being taught there too) is that the procedures people use are often based upon poor technique created through the non existent training rumor mill then that is implemented long enough that the incorrect technique becomes the instructed procedure. 


Take for example, gyroscopic forces of wheel and engine rotation as the reasoning on why a motorcycle or bicycle doesn't fall over and on why it turns. Then hand the so called gyroscopic expert a snow bike which handles just like a motorcycle and have him explain that.

[Shaivong]

Bumble, gyroscopic forces keep my bike upright. I have clutched weights that keep spinning even after I stop, like flywheels. It's like a segway.

[Bumblebee]

Bumble, gyroscopic forces keep my bike upright. I have clutched weights that keep spinning even after I stop, like flywheels. It's like a segway.

Wrong. The gyroscopic force from the clutch and wheels, while present, are not anywhere near enough to do the job. If it was enough force, you should be able to put the bike in netural with an idling engine with no brakes applied, stand beside the bike and let go without it falling over...yet it'll definitely fall over even at 12,000 RPM.

If gyroscopic forces do keep a motorcycle up, then explain snow bikes. They have exactly zero rotating parts yet they handle and do not fall over exactly like a motorcycle.

Reference this post for a better explanation:
http://nighthawk-forums.com/index.php/topic,457.msg3400.html#msg3400
Traveling in a straight line is nothing more than very very small force vector (aka minimal directional turn) changes.

BTW, the segway has a gyroscope much like the attitude indicator in an airplane. That teeny gyro is used to determine level and rate of change then the computerized contraption sends power to the individual wheels to turn them in the correct direction to keep the center of gravity over the wheel contact point. Different balancing method entirely though it uses the same physics.