Question on riding curves.

[Brumbie13]

Alright, I'm going to try my best to ask this, but I don't know how well my intention will come out.
I took the MSF course, and I understand how to go around curves, except... well... not when I'm going more than about 25 mph.
I have no idea what to do in a real life scenario when I'm going actual road speeds (not MSF parking lot speeds.)

So, lemme lay out a (very common) scenaro.

Let's say you're driving down the road, and you need to turn right.
You're going about 45 in 5th gear. (Is that normal? I don't know what's normal.)

Obviously, you're going to slow down before the curve, but what process do you do?

Do you slow down and downshift before you get to the curve?
Do you slow down and dowshift as you're going into the curve, then release the clutch and accelerate halfway through the curve?

I have been practicing a lot of different riding techniques on the backroads around where I live, but this is one that I can't figure out, and the MSF book doesn't give clear directions. I have practiced going around curves in a school parking lot, but again, I can't go any faster in the school parking lot than I can in the parking lot of the MSF course, and I didn't have any problems with that part of the MSF course.

Hopefully my question is clear and you'll be able to understand well enough to give a helpful answer.
Thanks everyone! Rock on!

[Hangster]

Well i never taken MSF and sort of just learned to ride on my own but the Question is a bit confusing as in do you mean a Curve or a "Turn" !!! ...In a Turn i just slow down and shift to the appropriate gear as approaching the turn then throttle up as turning (starting just before initiating the turn)....How much throttle and lean angle also depends on road conditions too , if it's  wet and or gravel present i don't lean  as much and i generally coast through the turn till upright and apply throttle (this might not be right but i don't know , it just feels safer that way when the road surface looks like it'll make the rear tire slip out)

I'm interested on hearing the actual techniques myself ...This is a great topic  

BTW.. have a look at LOKIs ride report and check out the videos , he demonstrates curves very well  .
http://nighthawk-forums.com/index.php/topic,2516.0.html

[Burgi]

I found Lee Park's book "Total Control" very helpful. I'm pretty sure I'll never get a knee down though. 

[Brumbie13]

Ok, it seemed that my description isn't enough to convey what I'm trying to say.

This maneuver I'm trying to do is like, really basic, not an advanced move. I'm pretty sure that I shouldn't have to read a book to know how to do this one.

(I'm not being rude, I promise. If it is coming out that way, I'm sorry. Thanks for your help so far guys.)

Here's a picture I drew to help you understand the scenario I mean.

So, same scenario...
Driving down a normal road in a city at 45 mph.
I want to turn right, so does the gargantuan tank behind me.
She's in autopilot, she's turned right 100,000 times before, and today is no different.
If I don't perform this exactly like she assumes I will (which is flawlessly) she's gonna cream me.

So I am trying to figure out exactly what it is that I'm supposed to do to pull off this (basic) move here.

Hopefully that'll be more clear.
Thanks guys.

[Brumbie13]

And of course, my use of "guys" is a non-gender specific way of saying "everyone." 

[Bumblebee]

The class simply teaches you to be safe in an empty parking lot and not a lot else huh? Always keep learning whether you have 3 miles or 40,000 miles behind you.

For a curve in the road that the current speed is too fast to enter such as 45mph into a 25mph curve:

Major adjustments are done in the straight, not in the turn.
Reduce power in the straight. Brake and downshift as necessary. Set the entry point in the lane to apex the curve at the proper point. Just before entering the curve, get off the brakes and stay off them and don't change gears again. You are not holding the clutch in either - the clutch is out and it's in gear, not coasting. Roll into the turn, apex the curve at the proper point. Apply throttle on the way out of the curve. (Just before entering the curve, I will also add just a bit of power sometimes to settle the suspension if I'm out goofing off and running fast in the twisties however don't worry about doing that until you get some experience lest you end up in a heap on the side of the road. It's a finess thing, not a brute force thing)
Always enter slow and exit fast. Never enter fast unless you're on a clean race track and know what you're doing. In general, and ideally, don't use brakes or change gears while in the turn. If you're going wide, turn tighter because braking will either wash out into a lowside or stand the bike up..either way it'll go very wide if not actually straight. Stay off paint stripes. Don't stick your body parts into the oncoming traffic lane or the bushes. Never ride faster than you can stop. Always look where you want to go, not where you don't want to go.


For a turn onto a side road:
Decelerate to a speed that will allow you to turn safely. Downshift as needed to 1,2 or 3rd gear as needed, then do what you were hopefully taught in the MSF class on slow speed turning. No clutch in the turn.


Edit: Picture helps. Same procedure as hopefully taught in the MSF class and described above for the turn onto a side road. EXCEPT you didn't mention the murderous cager running up your tailpipes in the original post. That changes the procedure. Add in this step just before decelerating for the turn: Forget the turn entirely, go straight through the intersection, maneuver as needed to get the cage off your license plate, navigate back to the original road you were going to turn onto.

[Brumbie13]

Thanks Bumblebee, that description is exactly what I needed to know.

As for the course, I have NOTHING bad to say about it. It wasn't that it didn't teach us to be safe on the road, but just that it isn't possible for the class to simulate every scenario that will arise.

What the class taught us was what you mentioned for turning onto a side road.
That was probably more of a limitation of the course size than anything else.

Also, it has been almost a year since I took the course, which probably has something to do with why I don't remember everything that was taught.

Once again, your description was exactly what I needed to have someone explain to me, thank you.

[Bumblebee]

I haven't taken the MSF class however I've observed them in progress and talked to quite a few people who have taken the class..including the local MSF instructors who teach the class. Just be aware that the class teaches the basic fundamentals to not kill yourself in ideal settings and not a lot more. Don't get me wrong though. Those minimal speed parking lot maneuvers are essential at saving your derrier at 50mph in heavy traffic at night in the rain on twisty roads. Go practice all those maneuvers and more in the local parking lot at least once a month for a couple hours.

Never get trapped in the mindset that everything is supposed to go as planned and that you can always do what you intend. Your cager up the tailpipes scenario is a classic example. You want to turn, the cager wants to make you a hood ornament so you have to do something else. Your abort the turn option is the best in those situations. Legally you're in the right when they ram you and roll over your body however legal is absolutely stupid beyond belief in such a situation especially when it kills you..or worse.

YOU are responsible for yourself. Learn real world situational awareness and judgement. Always have at lest two alternate plans of action at any given moment. Don't get stuck in any given mindset. Never ever ever let a cage or even another motorcycle operate within your safety buffer. If they enter your safety buffer, maneuver to get them out of it immediately.

Always...Keep...Learning...Always.

[happycommuter]

This morning I thought this was more about switchback curves than intersection corners.  Anyway, I agee with Burgi on Lee Parks' 10 cornering steps.  I borrowed the book, spent hundreds on his gloves.

Anyway, all I have to add to Bumblebee's fine answers is that you have to demand attention by signaling the turn and flashing the brake light well in advance.  After that, anyone should be able to scoot around a corner quicker than the glacial speed at which most land yacht captains take right angles.  It's a bigger deal to make them brake before the corner instead of at it the same as you.

[rwilli1228]

I've never take the MSF course.  However, I find that while negotiating a curve it is best to downshift and brake BEFORE you begin to lean into the curve.  On extremely curvy roads I will run at higher RPM's and lower gears than normal because the engine will slow me down before a turn in conjunction with the brakes a lot safer than just brakes.  It may be harder on the engine but I personally feel it is a lot safer and increases the amount of control one has.  

[WABBMW]

I recommend using a vacant parking lot and just practice; practice; practice doing turns and curves.  Sounds like your experience level is such, that as you look at a turn or curve, you are unsure about how fast to take the turn.  And if someone behind is rushing you, then it compounds the nervousness.  Eventually, you will be able to look at a turn or curve and know what is a safe speed to make the turn.  You should always leave some reserve (go slower) in case the road surface is compromised by gravel, sand, water, etc.

As you approach a curve in the road, I find that it helps to be leaning forward, and shift your shoulders and head slightly toward the direction of the turn.  Left turn - shift the shoulders to the left.  Keep looking forward to where you intend to go.  Do any braking well before the curve and downshift if you need to, before entering the curve.  How much to slow and whether to downshift comes with experience.  As you enter the left turn, for example, press forward on the left handlebar.  This will make the bike lean to the left.  Remember - the bike must lean in order to turn.  Another thing to get used to with experience, is the leaning and gaining confidence that you will not slide when leaning a certain amount.  If the curve sharpens, then press more on the left handlebar - the bike will lean more - but you will turn more.  As the curve straightens out, then reduce the pressure on the left handlebar.  Do not have your elbows locked in a straight out position.  Keep a fairly light touch, but good grip on the handlebars.  Also, it helps to lightly accelerate after the apex of the turn, but this will not be comfortable for a while.  Also, do not be in too low a gear, otherwise you might pick up too much speed and go too wide on the turn.

I have only been riding about 3 years and done about 17,000 miles.  It took me probably 2 years and 10,000 miles to get completely comfortable with doing all types of curves.  Practice in a safe place, and do not get out of your comfort zone.  Take it gradually.  It is a good thing that you are obviously safety minded.  Do not change that.  Slowly your confidence will build with experience to where you know exactly how to handle all situations safely.  Use baby steps.

[B83550nighthawk]

I dont even want to think about how many turns I DIDN'T take because I was concerned about the driver behind me... I have found that there are countless ways to get to Point B... the only time I am really concerned is if I have to turn at a different corner is whether or not that turn will put me in a neighborhood that I REALLY dont want to be in! But still, always err on the side of caution, you might be right in how you turned, but that is small consolation if you wake up in a hospital bed!

[Brumbie13]

Thanks you guys why just posted today.

It is good to be reminded to do things like drills in empty parking lots and such.

I'm getting a lot better, and more comfortable riding. I ride pretty much everywhere now. I'm still not 100% on right turns, I always want to be squeezing the clutch through the entire turn, and I remind myself everyday that that bumblebee says not to do that.

I'm taking my time and getting more and more proficient.
I think a lot of people get a bike and rush to be too good too fast.
Getting great at anything takes time, and I don't pretend to be better than I am. Although I am much more confident than I used to be, I am still not great at a lot of things. I'll be great when I'm great, until then, I'll be as good as I am.

[Bumblebee]

I'm still not 100% on right turns, I always want to be squeezing the clutch through the entire turn

The left handlebar is further away so you have to reach for the bar and the clutch is easy to tug on since your fingers are there already. The right bar is closer so control of the throttle is a problem as well. Add a slow speed lean angle and you do what your training tells you to do regardless if it's right or wrong.

The parking lot get-over-the-silly-nonsense solution: 50ft diameter right hand circle, 1st gear, fingers covering though completely off the clutch lever, tighten the circle, slow down, tighten the circle further to about 16ft, look directly over your shoulder 180 degrees ahead of where you are. Make a conscious effort to insure proper throttle, clutch, brakes and lean angle for the situation. Vary the radius and adjust to changing conditions. Now slow more and tighten until you bump the steering head stop then stay close to it with the clutch full out at near idle but still moving and stable. 3-4 full circles then go left, same procedure. Repeat right/left until someone watching you from the grass 200ft away gets dizzy. 

You'll put your foot down and drop the bike a lot at first. HOWEVER that fixes the clutch lever problem AND the throttle control problem at the same time along with a lot of other things you're doing wrong that you didn't realize.

Then once you finally get it down solid and think you're hot stuff, go find a slightly inclined parking lot and give it a try. 

Getting great at anything takes time, and I don't pretend to be better than I am.

That's how you learn to get it right and if you do think you're better than you are, the bike will humble you bigtime. That's also how you dump the bike a few dozen times in an hour. Then 3 months later, you'll be nearly right back where you started with a shorter learning cycle.

[rapta619]

DO NOT AND I REPEAT DO NOT CHANGE GEARS WHILE MAKING A TIGHT TURN.

1 day i was on my 750 virago making a left infront of 18 wheeler that was on coming at 60mph (i had enough time, 1/4 mile out or so) so i slow down, this is were the mistake was.

i went from third to 1st while shifting (totally missing second) while TURNING, my rear tire kicked off the ground like a mule, landed and knocked me around. i pulled over  just after the semi went by sweating bullets, called my gf, told her i loved her, slowly went home (about 2 miles away and i was going there anyways) and didn't ride for a week.

that scared the s??? out of me. mind you i was 17. (18 now and smarter then that day)

[sonicfour]

Here's an interesting tip I picked up while taking my MSF course.

If a cager has been following you for a while, and you're approaching a stop (or turn where you will need to brake), the cager might have "forgotten" you're there, due to the fact that you haven't really been moving much, and you have a very narrow profile, unlike a car. They're blind like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park. haha

So what do you do? Start swerving back and forth in the lane a bit like you're avoiding nails in the road. Hit the brakes lightly for good measure. The cager will get confused, and back off and start paying direct attention to you as you begin to start braking and downshifting for your turn.

I've only been riding a nighthawk for a few weeks (my first bike), and this amusing trick has already been useful. It definitely gets those cagers who are not intentionally tailgating but merely following too close for your comfort, to back off.

[happycommuter]

A while back on advrider.com the observation was made that standing up on the pegs while riding gets tailgaters to back off quickly for some odd reason.  Obviously, do not try anything outside your comfort zone in traffic.

[DirtyMrRogers]

1. draw attention to yourself (sway if ya feel like it, tap breaks, rev engine a bit, ad FLASHERS!)
2. get your shifting done and hands on handles not the controls BEFORE entering the turn.
3.(personally) I gas it a little when first leaning into the turn just because I like to feel the tires grip in (or slide?) before fully commiting to the turn.
4. (as bumblebee states) HIT THE APEX and gas out of the turn.
5. pick-ups here do a manuaver called the "Scandinavian Flick" (spelling?) which is a wipping proceedure that makes a turn forcefull, but fast. watch out for those. (mostly redneck trucks, we learned to race and drive on gravel, and that Scand. flick thing works). basically if you slow down AFTER the turn, they hit you.
   No shame in missing the turn, you find new ways to get places sometimes that are better than the way you were going anyway... and most of us are explorers/ adventures at heart anyway right?
Be safe

[hppants]

I have found that, when approaching an intersection that I will turn on, with vehicles behind me, using a hand signal in addition to my turn signal gets their attention better.