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Author Topic: Head to head conflicts...  (Read 881 times)
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Bumblebee Topic starter
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« on: July 19, 2010, 04:08:48 PM »

How do you handle high velocity head to head conflicts?

Here's a scenario:
You're on an open straight 2 lane highway with nearly lane wide shoulders on each side. Speed is 65mph with no traffic in front of you. Closure speed with opposite direction traffic is in the 130-140mph range. There are NO side roads or turnoffs to turn onto or out of thus no left turn across your path of travel scenario.
At 500 feet separation you see a high mass cage come out of his lane about halfway. It looks like the typical avoid an animal or something in the road. The expectation is that he'll get back in his own lane very soon. At 400 feet he's half in your lane which while hazardous is not uncommon. At 250 feet he's head to head with you in your lane as you dump speed. 200...no change. At 100 feet you're out of time and MUST react while the cage's left wheel is on YOUR right side road edge marking and sort of starting back toward his proper lane. The transition across your lane is not smooth, it's jerky as if he's unsure what to do. The hostile is not slowing much if at all and is at 55-60mph and you're in the 30mph range however that's still a nearly 100mph head to head closure velocity. You hear the cage tires behind you skidding.
In the USA, the rule is to pass on the right so people are programmed to do that no matter what. Do you go right onto your side shoulder and cross on the side he can mentally handle? Do you go left into the opposite direction traffic lane where he's likely to jerk the steering wheel because he's programmed to do so?

Same scenario, different scenario, whatever as long as it's head to head, not left turning nonsense.
Discussion:

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fishmeister
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 04:27:10 PM »

Stop on the shoulder asap, jump off the bike and run to the right. Hopefully it's not a cliff, if so it will make a good roadrunner episode.

It's called playing "chicken" and has happened to me before.

Maybe you just need a Karma energy drink. Your yin yang must be on vacation.
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ariwhiteboy
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 05:36:11 PM »

Well not really such and extrem case...but speaking from experience when I was faced with a head on and no time to react I just stood up and prepared for launch.  Between that and my gear I came through pretty good all things considered.
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 06:27:43 PM »

Swerve as best you can away from opposing hazard (to the right in this case) brake if at all possible. Crash math says that getting hit from behind with a minimal speed difference is substantially better that hitting something with a large, opposing vector.
Stay on the road as long as possible, slow down as much as possible.  Again, crash math says the ground will hurt less any than any car (barring any fixed barriers like guard rails).
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2010, 07:45:51 PM »

had this happen to me but the animal was a pack of hogs. Just did not see me. At 500 ft. I see him pull into my lane. At that point I knew he would not back off. I stayed my course until he was at about 200 feet or so then swerved off to the shoulder quickly and came to a halt. Look first and pick a nice clean line onto the side. A quick movement shows intent. Quickly pulling off to the far side then hammering the brakes draws attention and shows what your doing. At that point you still have the option for plan B. as fishmeister said RUN!!!!

edit: if you have to run don't worry about a kick stand....just run.
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 07:52:47 PM »

at closer distances like <175 feet that's a different story. No time to react sensibly, your gut instinct and reflexes is what saves you at that point. If for nothing else to know when to just let go and jump as Ari did. Had Ari tried to swerve to avoid the collision the resulting crash into the trees would have certainly been worse. Maybe not for the bike but for Ari.
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, 08:38:46 PM »

Interesting answers so far. None definitively right or wrong due to way too many variables.

You're not stopping at 500 feet before the opposition gets to your location. Getting off and running even if you just drop the bike just isn't going to happen in the time allowed.

130mph closure = 190 feet per second. At 500 feet, that's 2.6 seconds. You have roughly 4 seconds from the initial partial line cross to impact if you're hard on the brakes at the 500 foot mark which is unrealistic. You lose about 1.5 seconds identifying if the cross is harmless or threat.

The initial identification of a partial line cross is common run of the mill obstacle avoidance so then you're at 300 feet before you realize it's a serious threat. Even if you've been dumping velocity, that still puts you in the 2.5 second range to impact and you're still going 30-40mph.

I'm simply looking for how others handle this type of thing to minimize risk in such situations. Several years ago a head to head put me in the ditch. This time was involving much higher velocities. I'll give my solution later.
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2010, 02:29:32 AM »

  This has happened to me occasionally on two-lane backroads.   As soon as I see the offender cross the line, I'm off the throttle and headed for the right shoulder.

  If it doesn't look like I'll make it, then I have no choice but to fire the missiles  giggle
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 06:37:00 AM »

While nice discussion, a maximum of 4 seconds is hardly enough time to make a statistical analysis.  The rider's brain has to quickly process what he/she thinks the hazard is doing.  Is the vehicle drifting slightly and is so, which way?  If you get a glimpse of the driver's face, is he/she looking at you in horror and obviously trying to avoid you - or is he/she completely oblivious to your presence?

Trying to be objective in reading this situation, I would hope my lane position was correct as the vehicle/object was approaching.  I would hope that my constant surveillance of my surrroundings would instantly tell me what space around me is available for me to use.  I would be hard on the brakes and leaning over toward the right shoulder as much as possible.  Finally, I would hope to remember what others that have walked away from a dump have told me.  The instant you realize that you are going down, as much as possible, let the bike go.  Get the bike away from you.  Kick the bike away.  Jump up and let the bike go under you (Ari?) - whatever.  At the very least, you won't have to contend with a 500+ pound bike.

That was Monday Morning Quarterback.

In reality, I hope I do anything except panic.  And I hope I live to tell you about it.
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 07:23:50 AM »

a few years ago i spotted a cage comming west, i was going east. but he started drifting to his left i had time  to avoid him if he didn't correct his error. well he didn't. me ? i rode the wing up on the side walk and parked just seconds later he bumps the curb maybe 75ft infront of me looks up stunned and drives off. even if he would have jumped the curb he would have hit the building and not me
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 07:55:07 AM »

The instant you realize that you are going down, as much as possible, let the bike go.
Agree, but I'll point out the big difference from 'about to go' and 'going.'  I suspect that inexperienced riders often decide that they are out of options and that a crash is going to happen way too soon.  I think we all get that instant Final Destination recognition of how horrifically a scenario could end, but if you stick around and see what can be done, the worst can usually be avoided..

But yeah, there is a point of no return where the bike is going down or crashing no matter what, and there's no point in sticking around for the impact.   I certainly know when to call it quits and jump ship on a falling bike.
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2010, 08:52:37 AM »

This is a great thread.  As a relative Newbie, I've been riding regularly for the past 2 1/2 years, I don't really know the best way to handle any kind of crash, low siding, getting rear ended, head on, etc.  I've been lucky enough that I haven't been in any of those situations yet.  It would be great to hear some advice on how best to handle crashes (in the off chance that my mind can do anything other than react in the moment).

One thing I have done is added an extra layer of protection with a Hit Air brand air bag jacket.  I absolutely love it and try not to let it give me a false sense of safety.  Check them out at www.safermoto.com (I don't work for them or have any other financial interest, just really like their jackets / vests)

(Mods: Maybe this needs to be a separate thread?)

Thanks,
BaileyMan
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Bumblebee Topic starter
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2010, 08:58:29 AM »

The rider's brain has to quickly process what he/she thinks the hazard is doing.

Exactly. That's why I posted this one. I want to add to my list of options by seeing what others think or would do in this situation. I'd prefer to not get into an information feedback loop in my mind that would turn a go by into an impact.

Quote
If you get a glimpse of the driver's face, is he/she looking at you in horror and obviously trying to avoid you - or is he/she completely oblivious to your presence?

At high velocity, the driver's face isn't going to be usefully visible until about 30-40 feet. QED.

Quote
I would hope that my constant surveillance of my surrroundings would instantly tell me what space around me is available for me to use.

I think that's the real solution. Total awareness of your environment while making certain nothing occupies your safety buffer any longer than absolutely necessary and keeping that under control at all times.

Quote
In reality, I hope I do anything except panic.

Panic is the absolute worst thing you can do under any circumstances.
Something from a practical psychology class at university many moons ago: Panic is about giving up and allowing the environment to be in control of your survival...environment being defined as the thing that's attempting to kill you. Even using the word panic with it's known definition is enough to cause people to resort to panic as a functional solution to a problem..which it's not. It typically occurs due to a lack of knowledge and allowing emotion to impose unrealistic survival ideals on a situation. The brain switches off and nothing useful happens after that instead of remaining calm. The further away from the unknown, the more that's understood of a subject, the less likely panic will take over even when the individual runs out of knowledge on how to handle the situation. The very edge of a cliff is perfectly safe, falling off is dangerous. Panic can cause someone to step off the edge into empty air for no justifiable reason in order to attempt to survive being near the edge.
Just something to think about. (Never panic brake, always use emergency braking)

Yesterday's situation:
Around 200 feet, time slowed down and the rest of the event took about 5 minutes in my mind. Under 100 feet was inside of one second to impact. The move to the far right side wasn't working. The cage mostly stayed on the right side of my lane. My speed was in the 30mph range and the cage was around 55-60mph. I had a pickup truck about 50 feet behind me to use to my advantage. I recall deliberately putting myself inside the cages reasonable turn radius then dropped the brakes and aggressively went for the far left shoulder to avoid collision. I was on that shoulder aimed off the road surface before the cage passed me. The truck behind me made scary tire skidding noises and started to follow me. The hostile cage casually kept drifting to my right onto the right shoulder. The only glimpse of the driver and his passenger's face was that nothing unusual was going on and they were the only ones on the road. In this situation, anyone who went right onto the shoulder would have taken out with a 55+mph head on impact.
Afterward, I crossed back into my lane and kept going. In the mirror was a lot of dust from someone behind the truck running into the dirt and at least one car sideways in the road. No one was following me and the truck driver behind me saw absolutely everything that happened so they have a witness. I couldn't rationally stop because if I had, I would have gone back to check on the situation and, well, this country's judicial system doesn't believe in completely justifiable homicide as a method to protect society from murderous terrorists.


That was one solution for this one off situation. It could have easily not worked. It worked mostly because I stayed completely calm and didn't default to preprogrammed mindless drone partial training. The self inflicted monthly parking lot slow school training made the motorcycle handling instinctive. And oh yea, I scrubbed the crap out of my brand stinking new tires before getting around other traffic which allowed them to hold onto the pavement when it was absolutely essential. They had a little over 100 miles on them at the time..mostly on dirt roads that would have been better served with offroad tires.

Analyze, think objectively, control yourself. Practice riding skills at the limit of the bike's and your capability until those skills are instinct. Maintain control of your environment at all times. Fly the machine all the way though the situation or into the crash to a full stop. Never ever ever give up. Afterward, get back on the bike and ride again until the aftereffects fear goes away.
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LOKi
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2010, 10:43:13 AM »

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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2010, 10:55:41 AM »

Well done, Mr. Bee.  Glad you are still with us.
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2010, 10:54:49 AM »

In this scenario, I die.
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2010, 04:49:34 PM »

Very informative thread, glad I read through it.
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