Does a guy really NEED riding school?

[surrey_boy]

I'm tinkering with my first bike, an 83 NH 650sc and will have it road ready soon.  I'm strapped for cash and would like to pay for lessons but can't really afford it and find that I learn faster on my own in any case.  What are they gonna teach me in riding school that I can't figure out on my own or by watching youtube videos and reading accident threads?

I've been riding bicycles almost since I could walk and all the balance stuff is second nature.

I'm an older guy, mid-forties, and not a young, hot-headed risk taker.  I survived four seasons of solo ocean kayaking on 8C water by being conservative and avoiding risks - I'm going to apply that same mind-set to riding.

From reading the accident threads, it seems over-confidence is a killer and I'm not the type to push the envelope (in my old age, lol).

So what do you guys think - bite the bullet and pay for lessons or just be careful (and why)?

[happycommuter]

Instructors can spot errors early and correct them before they become bad habits that must be broken later.  A tree can grow all sorts of ways, but if it is fertilized and watered and trimmed from day one, it will be better, sooner.

Otherwise, yes, there are tons of people that have learned from trial and error, observation, informal instruction etc.  They very often report that they learned alot from a course despite having ridden for decades.

You only get to be a beginner once, and it is a huge benefit to start with good interactive instruction.

[surrey_boy]

Could you describe an example of a bad habit?
You mean like running yellow/red lights and stuff?

[ariwhiteboy]

+1 on what happy said, also you don't need Riding School per se, but a basic MSF course would benefit you greatly and even though you are strapped for cash (aren't we all) I think most Ins. companies offer you a pretty good discount for going through it and that would make better financial sense in the long run.

[surrey_boy]

But I already have the old guy's safe driver discount.  Never had an accident in 30 years of driving.

[ariwhiteboy]

1 discount + 1 discount = $$$ though,  In the end the call is yours to make, I've seen crappy riders who have been through MSF advanced and Awesome riders that have never taken a minute of instruction....in the end only you can make the call.

[happycommuter]

Turning heads in turns, body posture, brake proportioning, all kinds of stuff.  

You know how the dentist tells you to open wider, you think you can't but you do?

The instructors will tell you that your head is not turned far enough into the turn.  That you can brake harder, swerve faster.  You'll think you're doing fine, but have to try it to make them shut up.  And you'll realize that they do know what they are talking about, and that you can now do way more than you originally thought.

People have all kinds of crap habits: slow shifts, not covering controls when they should, foot dragging, looking down...

[ariwhiteboy]

Oh I hate seeing someone drag their feet ALLLLLLLL the way across an intersection.  Get 'em up!

[Adam Roby]

The course will teach you the kind of things you need to know (and want to master and make instict) methods to counter act a dangerous situation before it happens.  You can practice for 30 years but if a deer jumps out in front of you - you have no more experience at that then a new rider.  Things that can save your life, as one example is countersteering.  The principle is easy to read and watch on youtube but unless you have that experience and 1 on 1 training to show you if you did it right or not, one day it could be a matter of life or death.  There are plenty of examples like this, and the choice remains your own but I feel pretty strongly that it is important, and should be mandatory.

[surrey_boy]

Ok, I get the heads in turns thing:


Brake proportioning?
Hmm.

[surrey_boy]

I already get counter-steering - make the bike go to left at first, if you want it to go right, so you're leaning to the right when curving/accelerating to the right.

This is what I mean about rider's school maybe not being that 'mission critical' for a an expert cyclist.

[happycommuter]

I was going to write about MSF, but they don't exist in Canada.  

I'm guessing this is the course you'd be considering: JIBC Motorcycle Skills Course (MST 100)
The fee and hours seem comparable to the entry MSF course that gave me my start.  The description (read it: it tells you how much useful info/technique they cram into students) is also similar.

[Bumblebee]

Don't think of a motorcycle as a glorified bicycle that you don't have to pedal. Just because you can balance and didn't crash puttering to the end of the street and back doesn't mean you have control.

Can you objectively analyze your riding style and make good technique improvements on what you see wrong with your abilities with no previous riding experience or knowledge? Based on years of being a student as well as an instructor, it takes an independent objective observer who can analyze technique and ability to improve the student's skills.

Overconfidence will take you down. So will a cage if you can't get away from the murderous idiot that's trying to kill you. Here's one a lot of new riders don't realize: Conservative and cautious riding can body slam you against the ground as hard and fast as any cage can ever hope to. (One of the most dangerous riders I've ever seen is very cautious, conservative - scary dangerous behavior on a motorcycle if taken too far)

The mid 40's new riders over about the last 10 years tend to have an unreasonably high crash rate for assorted reasons. Some of it is the harley bar hopper image. Quite a bit of it appears to be a combination of hubris and impatience.

IMNSHO: Any monkey can twist a throttle and sort of go in the desired direction. Slow school work is where real riding skills come from that keep you safe at any speed...and failing that, give you the skills to crash as safely as possible. And yes, the 1 MPH slow school skills in the parking lot keep you out of the guard rail and from flying off the cliff at 70mph.


I don't know if you're an incompetent klutz or can hop on for the first time and win the Dakar tomorrow without effort. What I can tell you though is this: No amount of money in the bank account is going to do one the least bit of good when things go bad due to lack of skills and the ground starts grinding on squishable human body parts. Go to school and on the way home stop at the local motorcycle shop and think in terms of ATGATT. Then practice regularly to stay proficient.

[hockeyhawk]

I think motorcycle rider training be it Motor Cycle Safety Course or a private class is priceless. I took the MC course in my early 20's after riding dirt bikes since I was 10 and my first street bike when I was 17. I thought I was proficient enough and didn't not need it but I ended up learing way more than I thought I would. I still see guys every day making a simple mistake at red lights that I learned not to do only in the MC safety course. How many guys you see at a red light both feet on ground both hands off of bars. You should always have your foot on the brake, clutch engaged, bike in first gear, right hand on throttle ready to exit any dangerous situation that may occur. Seems simple enough but people make this mistake EVERY DAY.

Good luck, hope you make the right decision.

[surrey_boy]

Hmm - food for thought.

[Laminar]

Take the course.

[Bumblebee]

But I already have the old guy's safe driver discount.  Never had an accident in 30 years of driving.

Reality check: Previous history means less than squat nothing.

I've been riding motorcycles off and on for 40 years and the last 15+ years regularly. Four years ago without warning I suddenly found myself sliding on my face in 4-grit belt sander gravel at 20mph in my first real tumble off. Slow school skills, lots of experience, current proficiency and ATGATT is the only reason I'm typing this right now with no injuries. When I had the motorcycle up on the centerstand with a broken windscreen, broken mirrors and ground up helmet on the side of the road, I realized that I didn't know the first thing about riding and it was about time I learned something useful before I hurt myself. It's been an interesting and very educational 4 years which has kept me off the ground numerous times since.

Ask yourself this: Why does a motorcycle actually change direction on demand due to the control inputs by the rider? It's not because of countersteering, or turning the bars in a given direction, or because the motorcycle is leaned to one side. (Hint: The answer is not as obvious as it first appears and will require months of considerable thought and will not be covered in any training class you take however the knowledge can keep you safe)

Fact: The entry fee to the Face Plant Club sucks to no end.

Take the class. It'll be good for you.

[nodaclu]

I'm as conservative as they come behind the wheel. 24 years and nearly 400,000 miles without an at fault accident. Ego and over-confidence would never be a problem with me.

That being said, the MSF class taught me to watch the wheels of a car, and not trust the drivers eyes. That saved me from a certain T-bone on one occasion.

The MSF instructors also taught me how to respond when I lost traction in a corner. When it happened to me, I instinctively followed what they taught me, saving me from a really nasty high side.

So while the MSF probably wasn't necessary for me for learning how to ride, the class DEFINITELY saved me from serious injury on at least two occasions.  

[surrey_boy]

Maybe I'll take the class.  This reminds me of when I started kayaking, I went paddling a couple times without a drysuit, then I learned about what happens when you fall into 8 Celsius water and paid more for the drysuit than I did for the kayak.  It probably saved my life at least once.

[happycommuter]

Coaches will almost always push you harder than you will push yourself.  Seeking the approval of a demanding coach requires more than satisfying yourself.  I know I'm too self-indulgent to be my own coach when practicing.  Everything I do is always 'good enough.' 

There are plenty of concepts that I understand in theory, but still haven't honed decently in solo practice (the late apex turn, specifically).  The instant feedback of an expert is a much more direct path than dabbling alone.

[flynrider]

then I learned about what happens when you fall into 8 Celsius water

  That's exactly how you should be thinking.  Like kayaking, there are things that you don't know about riding a street bike that can get you into trouble.   The course will enlighten you.  Riding a motorcycle on the street is nothing like riding a bicycle.  

   I started riding before the days of motorcycle safety courses.  I had to figure it out on my own.  My first crash was 10 min. into my first ride when I learned a valuable lesson about brake usage in turns.  In the next few years, I scraped a lot of metal and skin "learning the hard way".   Many years later I sat in on an MSF course that a friend was teaching.  The content would have prevented most of my "learning" experiences.  Having an experienced instructor critiquing your skills invaluable.  Think about it.  If your swerving technique is not up to par, are you (as your own teacher) going to spot the problem and correct it?  More likely, the first time you'll be aware that it's not up to snuff is when you fail to miss that bumper coming at you.  That's learning the hard way.

  I have two Nighthawk buddies that returned to motorcycling after 25-30 yr. layoffs.   When I learned they were coming back to biking, I told 'em the first stop had to be the motorcycle course.  They came out riding better and smarter than they ever did before.   Just heard today that a third friend (confirmed Harley guy   ) is getting a bike after a 30 yr. layoff.  We were all relieved to hear that he's taking the course first.  It's an investment that will surely pay off.

[surrey_boy]

I saw a thing on TV about a school for racers where they have a device they attach to the bike to prevent it falling completely over.  The idea was you leaned the bike over till it slid out, because this would show you when this would actually happen.  Guys often don't know how far they can lean or cringe upwards, away from road and this is supposed to help with that.

I know what you guys are talking about is different but yeah, I guess it would be a good investment, just in terms of safety if nothing else.  I already have a good, thick leather jacket. 

[surrey_boy]

On the other hand, I just looked at the website for a local school.  It's $800 and seems to be just as much about the opportunity to identify yourself with a guy named Mark Kruger than anything else.

[ariwhiteboy]

Mark Kruger!  Where do I sign up!?!? He's the dreamiest! 

[surrey_boy]

Yeah!   

It's so cool, and there are big pictures of Mark Kruger all over the walls of the school, and although he might not show up in person, you sure get to watch Mark Kruger videos.

And you get a Mark Kruger poster to take home with you!

Not sure how much time they spend showing you about riding stuff, but hey, if it's Mark Kruger related, it MUST be worthwhile.