Thoughts on a group ride gone wrong? 5 dead

[chromy]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2031292,00.html

[ariwhiteboy]

Very sad to read, without knowing more about the situation it's impossible to say what/if anything the riders were doing wrong.  If I was forced to make a guess I might be inclined to say that they were following each other too closely.  Can't believe that DB cager drove off like that...well, yes I can. People like that make me hope Kharma is real...he needs to get his. 

[skramer360]

From the group rides I have been on, if we were in staggered formation properly spaced, I would say that a car coming into our lane at opposite high rate of speed would give very little chance of getting out of the way. Combined closing speed of 100+ mph = very little reaction time.

[edac]

Very sad to read,hope Kharma is real.

[SliverXZennon]

Read this article this morning on CNN, it's sad to read the comments. Obviously we have enough information to understand what happened...

Gold Civic - Went around them on the left lane.
Avenger - avoided Civic by going left and hit bikes head on.
Bikers - No chance to react.

I read the posts at the bottom of the article and they are bashing the bikes.. I highly doubt anything could have been done.

Here's the article on CNN..http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/11/14/california.motorcyle.accident/index.html?hpt=T2

[Bumblebee]

From the group rides I have been on, if we were in staggered formation properly spaced, I would say that a car coming into our lane at opposite high rate of speed would give very little chance of getting out of the way. Combined closing speed of 100+ mph = very little reaction time.

Exactly.

This summer I had a cager mindlessly cross the centerline and pass me and multiple other vehicles that were behind me on our right side mostly on our shoulder of the road. Even after cutting my speed in half before he got there, the closure rate was still in the 100mph range. I saw that one coming from about 1/3 mile away and barely escaped. At the distance someone runs into the dirt to avoid a head on during a close range pass then comes sailing across the road out of control, either you're already in the impact area or you're not.


Thoughts? Maintain control of your environment. A cager coming from behind then starting to pass plus oncoming traffic means get all over the brakes right then. Distance is your best friend, don't wait for things to start happening. If you're riding in a group, stay far enough apart to function independently.


I've only ridden in groups exactly twice. (7 and 3 motorcycles) I didn't like it much. There was too much watching out for each other, sticking together, and letting others make decisions for the group instead of acting independently. Too many riders were making assumptions because they were in the middle. They were decently behaved and safe however the group mentality was very hazardous compared to my independent single riding style. Other than that, it was fun.

[Soupskin]

Read this article this morning on CNN, it's sad to read the comments. Obviously we have enough information to understand what happened...

Gold Civic - Went around them on the left lane.
Avenger - avoided Civic by going left and hit bikes head on.
Bikers - No chance to react.

I read the posts at the bottom of the article and they are bashing the bikes.. I highly doubt anything could have been done.

Here's the article on CNN..http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/11/14/california.motorcyle.accident/index.html?hpt=T2

I think the Avenger went right off the shoulder, lost control and came back across the road.

[happycommuter]

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-ocotillo-motorcycle-accident,0,3049653.story

OCOTILLO -- The driver of a car that swerved into a group of motorcyclists, killing five people, has been arrested on suspicion of DUI.
...
He is not being held responsible for the deaths based on the evidence already collected, according to Officer Goudie. She said Rodriguez's speedometer was found stuck at 60 mph, which is 5 mph below the speed limit.

emphasis mine
Slow driving kills.  If he'd been going faster, he might have re-entered the road behind the motorcyclists.  I find the main cause of slow driving to be impairment of some sort (drunk, texting, stupid, lost, crap car, unintelligent, blind, can't reach gas pedal, etc.), so watch out for slow vehicles.

He estimated the gold Honda that tried to pass the motorcyclists was going about 95 mph.

emphasis mine
escaped unscathed, was paying attention.  IMHO.

[Hondo]

What a tragedy.

I hope it wasn't the result of an impatient driver trying to pass a moving roadblock. Doesn't really matter though, still a shame.

Drive with all of your lights on folks!

And Happycommuter, you need to put "emphasis mine" in your custom text window in your profile -  

[bajakirch]

The article I read on this stated that the driver of the vehicle that struck the MCs was arrested on suspiscion of drunken driving. Apparently the police smelled the odor of an intoxicant on him 5 hours after the incident. Still unsure if they'll be able to definitively say he was legally impaired at the time of the incident.

This demonstrates why I'm such a tireless enforcer of drunk-driving laws when I do my night job. Not every impaired driver that causes death or injury is bouncing curb-to-curb. In reality (in my experience), most are impaired at the level where their driving ability is affected enough that their reaction times are reduced and their attention is more distracted. If a case can be made for this driver to be charged with DUI, then he should be held equally responsible for all deaths.

Yes, his actions were affected by the missing driver/vehicle. But, if he was intoxicated he shouldn't have even been on the road. If he wasn't on the road, then the whole incident never happens. Not to mention how his impairment affected his ability to more safely avoid the oncoming vehicle.

[leftfield6]

Like many accidents, this one was a "chain reaction" in which I will say, based on what is known now, that both of the drivers (the Civic and the Anger) share some responsibility.  The Civic driver for attempting an unsafe pass, and the Avenger driver for being impaired.  The Civic driver started the chain reaction by his action, but the Aveger driver may have been able to control his vehicle better if he hadn't been drinking.

As for the cyclists role in this, it doesn't seem they did anything wrong, with the possible exception of following too close.

For me, myself, and I, I will say I don't like to ride in groups lager than 3 to 4, anything beyond that and I feel I'm putting to much control and too many choices in other people's hands, people who may be a more skilled rider than me.  Upcoming turn?  Leader wants to take that turn at 65, but I'm only comfortable at 60.  Multiply that by a few hours of riding, and peer pressure starts to have a negative effect.   Never mind me, though, I'm known to be a bit of a loner when it comes to traveling, on the bike or otherwise. 

[Tryvelcro]

Just wonder how many lives would have been altered for the better if a designated driver would have just been called.  This is the reason that I NEVER refuse a ride, no matter who the caller or the time of day/night.  Completely senseless tragedy.

[Bad Boy]

A great tragedy and am grieved for the loss of life and the injuries. It illustrates our vulnerability out there on the open road.

It is a risky scenario, passing a large number cruisers in the close formation they ride in.  Too often cruiser groups hold up traffic with their relaxed pace, creating driver impatience.  Unlike passing cars there is no space between bikes to allow passing a few at a time.  Many other types of slow moving vehicles will pull over to let you by.  It may seem harmless to drive slow like one owns the road until you have to pass a group.  A tragedy none the less.

[n5tbu]

"I've only ridden in groups exactly twice. (7 and 3 motorcycles) I didn't like it much. There was too much watching out for each other, sticking together, and letting others make decisions for the group instead of acting independently. Too many riders were making assumptions because they were in the middle. They were decently behaved and safe however the group mentality was very hazardous compared to my independent single riding style. Other than that, it was fun."
"For me, myself, and I, I will say I don't like to ride in groups lager than 3 to 4, anything beyond that and I feel I'm putting to much control and too many choices in other people's hands, people who may be a more skilled rider than me.  Upcoming turn?  Leader wants to take that turn at 65, but I'm only comfortable at 60.  Multiply that by a few hours of riding, and peer pressure starts to have a negative effect.   Never mind me, though, I'm known to be a bit of a loner when it comes to traveling, on the bike or otherwise.  "
These are pretty much my feelings as well.
I do ride with 2 other riders rarely,but we keep our distance so that a cage passing can filter in without cutting me off or rear ending the bike in front of me.
I have seen large group rides that hindered all the cagers behind them for many miles. Last thing I want is a pissed off cager behind me!!

[Burgi]

Not enough info on what they doing to do anything more than speculate and nothing they could have done deserved the outcome they got. It is a horrible tragedy, no where anyone is rushing off to is worth costing someone their life.
That said group riding involves more risk is some ways but also more protection in others. Cagers are more likely to play the "I didn't see you" card with a single bike. It is tough to say that when you have multiple bikes riding in formation. Keeping a tighter group keeps cars from dodging in and out among the motorcycles. Hopefully it also means that you have people watching your back.
Much depends on the group though, they are certainly not all created equal. I ride with a group fairly often (I am one of the leaders) and we do not hold up traffic, new riders get coaching, there is no drinking, routes are well planned, etc. The woman that started it does an absolutely amazing job.

[n5tbu]

"Keeping a tighter group keeps cars from dodging in and out among the motorcycles. Hopefully it also means that you have people watching your back."
Sorry Burgi,I think tighter groups causes problems with cagers as well as inattentive riders. Space equals safety margins.

[happycommuter]

I think tighter groups causes problems with cagers as well as inattentive riders. Space equals safety margins.

This is my feeling too.  No car wants to drive in the middle of a pack of bikes, but there are plenty of circumstances where the safest thing is to let the group be momentarily split.  Trust me, the car is exiting ASAP.

[Burgi]

Sorry Burgi,I think tighter groups causes problems with cagers as well as inattentive riders. Space equals safety margins.

there is no "space" in my local riding area. 

  No car wants to drive in the middle of a pack of bikes, but there are plenty of circumstances where the safest thing is to let the group be momentarily split. 

Trust me no one is claiming ownership over a bit of road over safety. We will break ranks if a car pushes through.